potentially the stupidest GTSS rule?

[T2Eagle]

Requirement: A Scout is Thrifty.  In most circumstances, a wagon is a thriftier way to transport material than picking it up and carrying it.

Dangers from wagons, none that I can think of.  I defy you to list any that are meaningful that are not two standard deviations away from the mean in likelihood.

[Kryten]

2 hours ago, RichardB said:

Happy Monday, 

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/01/15/whats-that-age-again-a-complete-guide-to-when-scouts-can-do-what/

The links in the blog are out of date since the transfer of the www.scouting.org website, but this pretty much sums it up:  "...The BSA’s Health and Safety team developed the age- and rank-appropriate guidelines based on the mental, physical, emotional and social maturity of Boy Scouts of America youth members..."

The updated info can be found here:  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/toc/

So couple of discussion items: 

What requirements are there for youth to use wheelbarrows or wagons?  Unaware of any but please let me know.  

What risks would be present for younger scouts in the use of wheelbarrows or wagons?  

Discuss.  

 

 

the link for    Age Guidelines for Tool Use and Work at Elevations
or Excavations

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-028.pdf

Wheel cart (1-, 2-, or 4-wheeled) scout 14 and under not allowed.

None with proper risk management. only the lawyers know.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Kryten
update

[qwazse]

Risk Relative to what?

• A 11-13 y/o youth carrying 50 pounds of mulch, rope, a saw,a shovel, and a rake across level ground may pose tremendous risk to himself and others. This risk can be mitigated by
  • a travois, but that often leaves drag marks,
  • a wheelbarrow, but that can require training on load balancing,
  • more scouts, but sometimes in the multitude there is chaos,
  • a wagon. Which is fairly straightforward, and easier to control, often, than one's two feet.

[mashmaster]

IMHO, wagons (4 wheeled) are about as safe as they can be.  Very little tipping risk and would alleviate the risk of carrying too heavy of a load or dangerous.  I would allow use of wagons at any age as long as weight ratio is maintained.   Something like the weight of the wagon and load shall not be greater than the person pulling it.

For the Wheelbarrow, I would be willing to make the cutoff at the Boy Scout level, and again with a weight restriction of the load.  We trust them with an Axe as long as they use it safely, a wheelbarrow is a tool that can be used properly or improperly. 

[Eagle94-A1]

6 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

  We trust them with an Axe as long as they use it safely, a wheelbarrow is a tool that can be used properly or improperly. 

DON'T GIVE HIM ANY IDEAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously I am reading how some district trainers are not going over saws and axes in IOLS and telling students that axes and saws are not safe for the Scouts to use. I thought it was a joke until someone else posted the same thing in his area.

[ianwilkins]

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Seriously I am reading how some district trainers are not going over saws and axes in IOLS and telling students that axes and saws are not safe for the Scouts to use. I thought it was a joke until someone else posted the same thing in his area.

[Hawkwin]

9 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

For the Wheelbarrow, I would be willing to make the cutoff at the Boy Scout level, and again with a weight restriction of the load.  We trust them with an Axe as long as they use it safely, a wheelbarrow is a tool that can be used properly or improperly. 

Gonna play devil's advocate on this one briefly. I initially thought this was silly too until I remembered that my own scout son had issues with a wheelbarrow last year. Even now at age 12, I am not sure he could use one correctly. I wonder and assume it has much to do with their height and arm position as well as their lower center of gravity making the wheel barrow unstable (my son could not keep from tipping it over while trying to help me move a few cubic yards of mulch).

I could see some minor injuries (potential broken bones) that could happen with the use of one. No idea what is the best solution (parent waiver, prohibition, training) would best mitigate this issue though.

[mashmaster]

8 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

DON'T GIVE HIM ANY IDEAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously I am reading how some district trainers are not going over saws and axes in IOLS and telling students that axes and saws are not safe for the Scouts to use. I thought it was a joke until someone else posted the same thing in his area.

sorry........  I am shocked.  I have only seen our scouts with the utmost respect for these tools when using them.  

[Hawkwin]

8 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Seriously I am reading how some district trainers are not going over saws and axes in IOLS and telling students that axes and saws are not safe for the Scouts to use. I thought it was a joke until someone else posted the same thing in his area.

DOH!

I am happy to report that it is still being taught in my area, even teaching it to BALOO attendees.

Hawkwin - recent attendee at IOLS.

[mashmaster]

3 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Gonna play devil's advocate on this one briefly. I initially thought this was silly too until I remembered that my own scout son had issues with a wheelbarrow last year. Even now at age 12, I am not sure he could use one correctly. I wonder and assume it has much to do with their height and arm position as well as their lower center of gravity making the wheel barrow unstable (my son could not keep from tipping it over while trying to help me move a few cubic yards of mulch).

I could see some minor injuries (potential broken bones) that could happen with the use of one. No idea what is the best solution (parent waiver, prohibition, training) would best mitigate this issue though.

Sounds like a scout should only use it if they are trained on the use and the weight ratio.  Some of our 13 year olds are bigger and stronger than me, some of our 14 year olds are sub 100 pounds.

[walk in the woods]

2 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

Instead out outright banning wheelbarrows, how about emphasizing that Scouts need to use wheelbarrows that are appropriately sized for them (ie a smaller garden-style wheelbarrow and not a large mason's wheelbarrow) and that Scouts can't use wheelbarrows on makeshift or other ramps?

 

 

Because that would allow discretion for on-the-ground leadership.  Outright bans are always the choice of bureaucrats and tyrants that do not trust their subjects.

[Treflienne]

On 6/25/2018 at 10:48 AM, T2Eagle said:

Dangers from wagons, none that I can think of.

Surely some of you in your childhood must have done what I did:  Drag your radio-flyer wagon to the top of the hill.  Climb in.  Let gravity take you to the bottom.  Hopefully you picked an appropriate hill.

But used as a tool,  rather than as a gravity-powered car,  wagons seem quite harmless.

[CalicoPenn]

5 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

Surely some of you in your childhood must have done what I did:  Drag your radio-flyer wagon to the top of the hill.  Climb in.  Let gravity take you to the bottom.  Hopefully you picked an appropriate hill.

But used as a tool,  rather than as a gravity-powered car,  wagons seem quite harmless.

I now have the image of Calvin and Hobbes flying down a hill in their Radio Flyer - thanks for the pleasant image.

[NJCubScouter]

3 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

I now have the image of Calvin and Hobbes flying down a hill in their Radio Flyer - thanks for the pleasant image.

[mashmaster]

Thank god there were no cell phones or youtube when I was growing up.....  I am a survivor of the 70's