Patrol Method and new G2SS rules

[Kryten]

On 6/17/2018 at 9:24 AM, qwazse said:

Do you have a location (building, park) where they adults can sit centrally, but the patrols can meet in individual rooms/pavillions.

yes i do. that is one of the things  i am looking to do. i want to give them  the best environment  for  (or at least the perception of) independence. outside of weekly troop meetings.

my biggest hurdle will be getting the adults on board with the extra time commitments.

I am thinking of maybe some  sort of patrol support position. they would only need to  be there to meet the new requirement.  As the troop pays for the adult registration fees,  and less time commitment. i might get some bites.

thankfully we have more than enough ASM support for our troop camping and trips.

 

[shortridge]

15 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

CO requires two adults (not necessarily registered) in any room where there are youth.

I’m curious: How do your youth react or respond to that rule? Logistically speaking, when you have patrol meetings, do you have enough adults to break off with every patrol? And what is the CO, if you’re able to say?

[qwazse]

35 minutes ago, Kryten said:

yes i do. that is one of the things  i am looking to do. i want to give them  the best environment  for  (or at least the perception of) independence. outside of weekly troop meetings.

my biggest hurdle will be getting the adults on board with the extra time commitments.

I am thinking of maybe some  sort of patrol support position. they would only need to  be there to meet the new requirement.  As the troop pays for the adult registration fees,  and less time commitment. i might get some bites.

thankfully we have more than enough ASM support for our troop camping and trips.

 

Given that you have the facuilities your patrols really only need two registered adult leaders located centrally, for you to be able to follow this to the letter, I think.

But think about it. If a PL decides to get together with his buddies and, by the way, draw up a hike/camp plan, is anyone going to stop them?

[Rick_in_CA]

Does having adults around on a patrol hike change things? Yes, no mater how quiet they are, and how much in the background they stay. It hurts the scouts.

Multiple studies have shown the benefits of unsupervised time for child development. The kids need time without any adults around to grow.

Youth Protection is important, but not at the expense of the kids.

[SSScout]

Scout activity....   So the Scout registered mom and dad drive the Patrol (two cars, eight Scouts ) to the trailhead. In deference to modern communication possibilities, the PL and some others have cell phones.   The Scout registered mom and dad  show up at the trail end, twelve miles later, to pickup the Scouts, 5 hours later.  Picnic, cookout, watermelon in the cooler.

I say that fulfills the idea of "at a Scout activity", no?

[TAHAWK]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:49 PM, Kryten said:

Hi

i am in a smaller troop with limited leader availability.

I am looking for some ideas to try and keep our patrols active in spite of the new G2SS rules requiring 2 21+ leaders at all patrol activities and meetings.

i was thinking of maybe a patrol night .

any help would be great.

National Service Center

Mailing Address: PO Box 152079, Irving, TX 75015-2079

Physical Address: 1325 W. Walnut Hill Lane, Irving, TX 75038

Office Phone: 972-580-2000

Questions or comments: MyScouting@scouting.org 

Media inquiries: PR@scouting.org 

[TAHAWK]

On 6/17/2018 at 2:39 PM, MattR said:

It seems there are a few assumptions here about what it means for two adults to be at an activity. If the activity is cooking a meal then does that mean there needs to be 2 adults in each camp site? That's ridiculous. So there needs to be 2 adults on the camp property? That makes more sense. What if the property is a national forest? My point is until someone starts describing in some detail what this means you may as well not read too much into it. It really gets down to trust, as it always has been.

 

What, you want coherent English?  From "professionals"?

National Service Center

Mailing Address: PO Box 152079, Irving, TX 75015-2079

Physical Address: 1325 W. Walnut Hill Lane, Irving, TX 75038

Office Phone: 972-580-2000

Questions or comments: MyScouting@scouting.org 

Media inquiries: PR@scouting.org rofessionals"?

On 7/1/2018 at 4:26 PM, SSScout said:

Scout activity....   So the Scout registered mom and dad drive the Patrol (two cars, eight Scouts ) to the trailhead. In deference to modern communication possibilities, the PL and some others have cell phones.   The Scout registered mom and dad  show up at the trail end, twelve miles later, to pickup the Scouts, 5 hours later.  Picnic, cookout, watermelon in the cooler.

I say that fulfills the idea of "at a Scout activity", no?

Not hardly.

National Service Center

Mailing Address: PO Box 152079, Irving, TX 75015-2079

Physical Address: 1325 W. Walnut Hill Lane, Irving, TX 75038

Office Phone: 972-580-2000

Questions or comments: MyScouting@scouting.org 

Media inquiries: PR@scouting.org 

 

[AltadenaCraig]

On 6/17/2018 at 3:59 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

The problem is that it appears that National no longer trusts our Scouts, and wants to make BSA to mean Baby Sitters of America IMHO. From 1910 to 2012, National trusted Scout patrols to do ANY activity, including patrol over night camping with the SM's permission. And from 1910 to October 1, 2018, Patrols could, and continue to do until October 1, 2018, have patrol day activities without adults present.

Some of the things I have done as a Scout, or have seen done, that will be forbidden after October 1, 2018 are the following:

Patrol day hikes without adults

Patrol meetings without adults

Patrol service projects without adults

Patrol shopping trips without adults

Patrol practices for camporee without adults

Patrol fishing trips without adults.

 

Seems like BSA doesn't trust Scouts, nor us Scouters as far as I am concerned.

I've begun floating to my Troop Committee the idea of establishing one or more Venture Crews for our older scouts.

I'd avoided it previously because I foresaw the boys continuing to work toward Eagle while any girls who'd joined didn't have that option.  Moreover there didn't seem to be all that much that a venture crew could do that a scout patrol couldn't.  Now with girls able to pursue Eagle, as well as the murky G2SS impending requirements, it's dawning on me that Venturing will be my Underground Railroad to freedom for my older scout patrols.

Such a transition might be a little more complicated for troops with mixed-age patrols, but as all of my troop's patrols are age-based the Venturing option is pretty straightforward.  The risk to my troop, however, is a Venture Crew is supposed to be 100% venturer-lead.  While my hope would be that any venture crews we establish would function as senior-scout leaders/trainers (meet on the same night as the troop, split-out during patrol-meeting & game-time but otherwise hang-out with the troop), the truth is that any such lingering troop-affiliation would be at the discretion (mercy?) of the venturers.  They might fly the coop entirely.

Anyone else seeing Venturing as the answer?

[acco40]

G2SS May 2018

All Scouts registered in troops are eligible to participate in troop or patrol overnight campouts, camporees, and resident camps.

Patrol Activities—A Scout patrol may participate in patrol activities. Two-deep adult leadership is required.

 

Patrol Leaders Handbook (2010)

Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop.

However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership as long as they follow two rules:

• The Scoutmaster approves the patrol activity.

• The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function.

 

So yes, the rules have changed (didn't find a 2017 Patrol Leader's Handbook on-line). 

Now, when I was a Scoutmaster I had the boys ask to do an outing that wasn't necessarily allowed by the G2SS.   No, not rob a bank but things like laser tag or paintball.  What I told the boys was that those activities were not sanctioned by the BSA but if they wanted to plan it out and even invite me, I'd be game but I made it clearly understood to them and their parents that it wasn't a Scout activity.

Would I do that today for an overnight activity?   Probably not.  But a few years ago, I had one patrol (older boys) do a "patrol outing" of sorts where they camped out of earshot and sight line from the remainder of the troop, we were hosting Webelos Scouts, and the boys absolutely loved it.  I made the mile walk around 9:30 PM to see if everything was kosher and then again around 7:30 AM just as a check.  It really fostered youth leadership and they talked about that outing for years as one of their favorites.

You have to know your boys and I'm a believer that the more you put trust in them, the more they will reward you for that trust.

I'm sure it was a liability issue for the BSA but it's sad they took the patrol option away.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by acco40

[Terasec]

On 10/16/2018 at 12:45 PM, acco40 said:

 

Would I do that today for an overnight activity?   Probably not.  But a few years ago, I had one patrol (older boys) do a "patrol outing" of sorts where they camped out of earshot and sight line from the remainder of the troop, we were hosting Webelos Scouts, and the boys absolutely loved it.  I made the mile walk around 9:30 PM to see if everything was kosher and then again around 7:30 AM just as a check.  It really fostered youth leadership and they talked about that outing for years as one of their favorites.

You have to know your boys and I'm a believer that the more you put trust in them, the more they will reward you for that trust.

I'm sure it was a liability issue for the BSA but it's sad they took the patrol option away.

 

 

one of my gripes with scouting is way too much supervision,

having adults within earshot is not the same as being on your own,

 

[mrkstvns]

On 10/16/2018 at 11:45 AM, acco40 said:

So yes, the rules have changed (didn't find a 2017 Patrol Leader's Handbook on-line). 

..

I'm sure it was a liability issue for the BSA but it's sad they took the patrol option away.

Sad indeed.  

It's a steady progression towards a wimpier, less self-confident kind of boy. Challenges help a kid grow and meeting them head-on are what make a man.

Looking back at the original 1910 BSA rank requirements, I see this for First Class...

4. Travel alone by foot or rowboat to a point at least 7 miles distant and return (15 miles if by vehicle or animal), and write a short report. It is preferable to take 2 days to do this.

 

[Terasec]

18 minutes ago, mrkstvns said:

Sad indeed.  

It's a steady progression towards a wimpier, less self-confident kind of boy. Challenges help a kid grow and meeting them head-on are what make a man.

Looking back at the original 1910 BSA rank requirements, I see this for First Class...

4. Travel alone by foot or rowboat to a point at least 7 miles distant and return (15 miles if by vehicle or animal), and write a short report. It is preferable to take 2 days to do this.

 

its a shame how bsa has moved away from the independent outing to the mommy and me programming it is today

[Sentinel947]

9 hours ago, Terasec said:

one of my gripes with scouting is way too much supervision,

having adults within earshot is not the same as being on your own,

 

Agreed. Even in today's safety aware and litigation happy society, adults in earshot changes the dynamics between teenagers.

I don't need to be able to see them at all times, but they need to be close enough that I can check in with them, and if they need help from adults that we're easily accessible. For backpacking/ hiking, I'm happy for them to be up ahead of me, slightly out of visual or audio range. if they run into issues, I'll catch them in 3-5 minutes. For camping, I'd like to camp outside of earshot of them, preferably out of visual range, but close enough that I don't have to walk too far to check in on them, and that they can find me if they are having problems. In reality, most campgrounds, front-country or back-country, my scouts have to camp within visual range of the adults due to space constraints. This does depend on the age dynamics of the Boys, I'd give more latitude to a group of older Scouts, or my NYLT Staff, than I would to a group of 1st or 2nd year scouts. 

Nothing I've outlined should run afoul of the GTSS, at least in my readings of it. Hopefully I'm not proven wrong on that. Society has changed, and parents expect and demand a higher level of supervision than previous generations, but I think sometimes we exaggerate what the rules require. That causes newer adults to ramp up their supervision of the Scouts when they should be opening things up.