Patrol Method and new G2SS rules

[Kryten]

Hi

i am in a smaller troop with limited leader availability.

I am looking for some ideas to try and keep our patrols active in spite of the new G2SS rules requiring 2 21+ leaders at all patrol activities and meetings.

i was thinking of maybe a patrol night .

any help would be great.

[qwazse]

Do you have a location (building, park) where they adults can sit centrally, but the patrols can meet in individual rooms/pavillions.

[Eagle94-A1]

FYI, According to the current online version, which is more uptodate than the pdf version, the patrols can still do day activities  on their own without adults until 10-1-18.

So the Patrol Method is its terminal stages. 😪

 

[Eagledad]

Another thought is Ask another Troop if you can camp next to them. Separate programs, but additional adults in the area.

Barry

[MattR]

It seems there are a few assumptions here about what it means for two adults to be at an activity. If the activity is cooking a meal then does that mean there needs to be 2 adults in each camp site? That's ridiculous. So there needs to be 2 adults on the camp property? That makes more sense. What if the property is a national forest? My point is until someone starts describing in some detail what this means you may as well not read too much into it. It really gets down to trust, as it always has been.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

3 hours ago, MattR said:

It seems there are a few assumptions here about what it means for two adults to be at an activity. If the activity is cooking a meal then does that mean there needs to be 2 adults in each camp site? That's ridiculous. So there needs to be 2 adults on the camp property? That makes more sense. What if the property is a national forest? My point is until someone starts describing in some detail what this means you may as well not read too much into it. It really gets down to trust, as it always has been.

 

The problem is that it appears that National no longer trusts our Scouts, and wants to make BSA to mean Baby Sitters of America IMHO. From 1910 to 2012, National trusted Scout patrols to do ANY activity, including patrol over night camping with the SM's permission. And from 1910 to October 1, 2018, Patrols could, and continue to do until October 1, 2018, have patrol day activities without adults present.

Some of the things I have done as a Scout, or have seen done, that will be forbidden after October 1, 2018 are the following:

Patrol day hikes without adults

Patrol meetings without adults

Patrol service projects without adults

Patrol shopping trips without adults

Patrol practices for camporee without adults

Patrol fishing trips without adults.

 

Seems like BSA doesn't trust Scouts, nor us Scouters as far as I am concerned.

[David CO]

31 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Seems like BSA doesn't trust Scouts, nor us Scouters as far as I am concerned.

There's no question about it. BSA doesn't trust us. Any of us.

I also think there is a financial motive. BSA wants to force more of us to register and pay registration fees.

[Hedgehog]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:49 PM, Kryten said:

Hi

i am in a smaller troop with limited leader availability.

I am looking for some ideas to try and keep our patrols active in spite of the new G2SS rules requiring 2 21+ leaders at all patrol activities and meetings.

You need two registered leaders.  That could be the SM, an ASM, a Committee Member or a Chartered Organization Representative.  Is the problem with not having adults or not having them registered?  If it is the second, have them registered as Committee Members -- the training isn't as extensive as for a SM or ASM.  The G2SS rule is here:

Quote

Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. 

At most, that is two adults per patrol.  At the least, it is too adults for the troop.  My sense is it would depend on the scope of the activities -- if the Troop is meeting in a park with each patrol in a different area, I could see two adults for the Troop being enough if they are centrally located and can see what the groups are doing.  However, if patrols are hiking in different directions in the woods, you would need two adults with each patrol.  Our

CO requires two adults (not necessarily registered) in any room where there are youth.  This is really a protection for the adults.  That way, there is another adult in the room in case any scout falsely accuses an adult of doing something wrong.  That exact situation happened in a neighboring Troop.  But for the other adult being there, the child's accusations would have permanently damaged this adult's reputation.

1 hour ago, David CO said:

There's no question about it. BSA doesn't trust us. Any of us.

I also think there is a financial motive. BSA wants to force more of us to register and pay registration fees.

Your comment about trust is hyperbole.  It is more about best practices in youth protection.

Would your school allow a 7th and 8th grade baseball team to meet at night at your school without any adults present?  Would it allow a team practice with a single coach?  How about just a parent instead of someone who the school has run a background check on?  I suspect any school or church's youth protection policies are very much in line with the new G2SS rules.

As for the more registration fees, you are required to have a Committee Chair, two Committee Members and a Scoutmaster.  Assuming you have a small Troop (less than 10 boys), you need half of your registered adults at any given meeting.  Even for a Troop that size, I would want at least one Assistant Scoutmaster.  Our Crew which is 12 Scouts has six registered adults.  It is not hard to get two adults.

11 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So the Patrol Method is its terminal stages. 😪

 

We've had the two adults with each patrol rule imposed by our CO for years and it hasn't hampered our use of the Patrol Method or the concept of boy leadership.  The key is to make sure your registered adult leaders buy-in to the concept.  Like your signature says, we train our Scouts, we trust them and we let them lead.  An adult sitting in the quietly sitting back of the room and giving the leaders some feedback and suggestions after the meeting doesn't change it.  

[Eagle94-A1]

25 minutes ago, Hedgehog said:

We've had the two adults with each patrol rule imposed by our CO for years and it hasn't hampered our use of the Patrol Method or the concept of boy leadership.  The key is to make sure your registered adult leaders buy-in to the concept.  Like your signature says, we train our Scouts, we trust them and we let them lead.  An adult sitting in the quietly sitting back of the room and giving the leaders some feedback and suggestions after the meeting doesn't change it.  

Does your patrols do their own hikes whenever they want, or they do they have to wait for adults to get off work? Do they do their own patrol meetings, outside of troop meetings, whenever they want, or do they have to schedule them around around adults?  

Regarding your baseball analogy, have players gotten together to practice on their own, without any adults around? Heck have they ever played a pick up game without adults around?

Having a patrol do things on their own is the same thing.

 

[Hedgehog]

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Does your patrols do their own hikes whenever they want, or they do they have to wait for adults to get off work? Do they do their own patrol meetings, outside of troop meetings, whenever they want, or do they have to schedule them around around adults?  

Our rule is if they want to do it, we find the adults necessary.  Kids are so over scheduled these days that nothing is spontaneous and everything is planned in advance, so it isn't difficult to get the adult leaders if it is going to be a Scouting event.

6 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding your baseball analogy, have players gotten together to practice on their own, without any adults around? Heck have they ever played a pick up game without adults around?

The difference is that is an individual activity not a team sanctioned activity.  Do my son and his buddy's who are Scouts take bike rides together or go hang out at the nearby lake or go into town to get pizza together?  Of course.  Does that need adult supervision?  Of course not.  Could a whole team meet on school grounds, use the school equipment and have a practice without adults?  I highly doubt it.  If it is a patrol, Troop, OA Chapter or other activity, does it require adult supervision?  Of course it does.

As @NJCubScouter said in another post -- it is the darn lawyers.  As one of those darn lawyers, I understand that no organization can undertake any activities with youth in the absence of appropriate adult supervision.  A kid falls and breaks his arm while on a patrol activity, the boys were encouraged to undertake the activity by the adults in charge of the Troop.  However, there are no adults there. The boys that are there try their best to help the boy up so they can walk out of the woods, but in doing so causes permanent nerve damage.  Can you tell me there won't be a lawsuit based on negligence for failure to provide adult supervision?  

In a perfect world, patrols would be able to do those sorts of activities without adult supervision.  Unfortunately, the world isn't perfect.  So we have two options - bemoan the rules and declare the death of the patrol method or figure out a way to keep the patrol method alive and kicking in our Troops.  I chose the latter. 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Hedgehog said:

Would it allow a team practice with a single coach? 

Yes. 

[Hedgehog]

9 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

Would your school allow a 7th and 8th grade baseball team to meet at night at your school without any adults present?  Would it allow a team practice with a single coach?  How about just a parent instead of someone who the school has run a background check on?  I suspect any school or church's youth protection policies are very much in line with the new G2SS rules.

 

9 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

Would it allow a team practice with a single coach?  

 

 

7 hours ago, David CO said:

Yes. 

 

To paraphrase that great sage Meatloaf, one out of three ain't bad.😁

[David CO]

2 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

To paraphrase that great sage Meatloaf, one out of three ain't bad.😁

No, it's not that. The other two examples aren't applicable to a school sports program. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

Sports conferences often have limits on practice time, so the school AD has to keep an accurate count and make it available to conference officials. A school is allowed to have student-run practices, just so long as they are counted as practices. 

We still have an open campus. There has been some discussion about this. Our church and school are not in two separate buildings. Since the church must remain open to all worshipers, it would be highly impractical to have a closed campus. 

 

[MattR]

1 hour ago, Hedgehog said:

I understand that no organization can undertake any activities with youth in the absence of appropriate adult supervision.  A kid falls and breaks his arm while on a patrol activity, the boys were encouraged to undertake the activity by the adults in charge of the Troop.  However, there are no adults there. The boys that are there try their best to help the boy up so they can walk out of the woods, but in doing so causes permanent nerve damage.  Can you tell me there won't be a lawsuit based on negligence for failure to provide adult supervision?

Is it possible to quantify this a bit? How often does a scout get permanent damage on a hike from mishandling a first aid situation? How often does a parent know enough to make a difference in such a situation? What training does an adult need to make a difference in such a situation and how many adults have that training? Standard first aid assumes there's an ambulance 5 minutes away. First aid MB is mostly a joke. If it weren't then I wouldn't have to renew my first aid in a week from now. Wilderness first aid touches on more issues. So how many adults have taken wilderness first aid and how many of the two deep leadership, on a hike, have done this? All of these numbers suggest that, for one, this is a very unlikely scenario, and for two, an adult won't make much difference. All in all, if someone is going to sue then they're going to do it whether an adult was there or not.

But let's look at the benefit of letting scouts go on their own. I've had discussions with scouts about what they're going to do if things go bad. This is not a normal discussion with a teenager. They know it's for real. It's not pretend leadership with the adults off in the wings ready to jump in. The scouts take this very seriously. It's one of the best experiences a scout can have. Real responsibility. This is an adventure for the scouts. Every single scout that has led a group on a hike has learned something useful.

Rather than a blanket rule about assuming 2 adults will solve every problem I'd much rather see some form of training for SM's on how to ensure the scout motto is applied in this scenario.

[cchoat]

13 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

As @NJCubScouter said in another post -- it is the darn lawyers.  As one of those darn lawyers, I understand that no organization can undertake any activities with youth in the absence of appropriate adult supervision.  A kid falls and breaks his arm while on a patrol activity, the boys were encouraged to undertake the activity by the adults in charge of the Troop.  However, there are no adults there. The boys that are there try their best to help the boy up so they can walk out of the woods, but in doing so causes permanent nerve damage.  Can you tell me there won't be a lawsuit based on negligence for failure to provide adult supervision?  

Sadly, even if you had two deep leadership, with both adults registered leaders, all the BSA procedures followed, and both adults being highly trained emergency doctors, there would still be a potential lawsuit.  That is the way of today's society.