Can a girl who gender identifies as a boy join a Scout troop now?

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

Not where I live. The only place I have ever seen a transgender person is on TV. 

I met the first kid I knew who was coming to terms with with gender identity questions about 5 years ago.  The kid has not transitioned, but was clearly trying to figure things out.  In the back of my mind I thought  - it has to be easier if the parent stops this.  Over time I got to know the kid and realized he was like every other kid - but his struggle was gender identity.

About two years ago I found out that a kid that I have known for his whole life was going to counseling for gender identity issues.  I've known this kid all his life.  He's a wonderful kid - has the same struggles as others- school, friends, parents, etc.  He has the added challenge of dealing with his gender identity.  He's been in weekly counselling since then.  His parents struggled with it and pushed back pretty hard.  They talked to counsellor after counsellor.  They eventually figured out that they needed to simply support him.  

What I've come to learn is that transgender kids are kids first.  They want to be accepted and loved - it's just a whole lot harder for them because to them being normal means being accepted as having a gender they were not born with.

 

[Oldscout448]

it's not hypothetical to me.

sounds like we have two different definitions of the word normal being bandied about.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Oldscout448

[The Latin Scot]

14 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

Gender is a social and cultural construct - not biological (its a common error to use gender when what one really means is sex).  Since gender is not biological, it is very fluid - both on an individual level and on a societal level. 

I just have to say I feel this ideology is egregiously false. Gender is an inherent, essential part of who we are. It is not at all fluid - a girl cannot become a man, nor can a boy become a woman. Those who disfigure their bodies in a desperate attempt to change from one to the other will only reap misery and regret. I refuse to accept that a boy who alters his biology to become, physically, a "woman," is a woman - he is still male inside, and nothing he does will ever change that. And vice versa. This, of course, is strongly related to my beliefs, which hold powerfully that we existed before we came to Earth, that we have s purpose for being here, and that we have an eternal destiny after this life. The deceit which claims we can change our sex or gender, just because we don't feel like we fit current societal perceptions of gender, is false. A male has always been and always will be male. A female has always been and always will be female. I am not fooled by modern suggestions that try to dis-establish the permanence of our sex - just because a child feels he doesn't fit the way the world personifies a man, doesn't mean he isn't one. The same for girls. I find the fact that this discussion is even current I find a sad commentary on the way the world perceives who it thinks we are.

[David CO]

3 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

 

@David CO, to quote Pope Francis, transgender youth are "children of God, loved by God and deserving of accompaniment by the Church."  I am happy to serve the children of God by giving them a place in Scouting.

Pope Francis has made it clear that he does not agree with the concept of gender identity.

 

[David CO]

4 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

I'll vouch for the fact that NONE of the kids in our Crew or Troop are normal.  They are all goofballs, goobers, geeks and misfits -- that is why I like them so much.

That is possibly the worst indictment of scouts and scouting that I have ever heard. The vast majority of my scouts have been strong, smart, well-adjusted, socially-adept, and devoutly religious. They don't fit your negative stereotypes at all.

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by David CO

[shortridge]

4 hours ago, David CO said:

That is possibly the worst indictment of scouts and scouting that I have ever heard. The vast majority of my scouts have been strong, smart, well-adjusted, socially-adept, and devoutly religious. They don't fit your negative stereotypes at all.

I saw nothing negative in Hedgehog’s description, but rather an embracing of the quirks and foibles of each person’s individuality. It’s entirely possible to be a strong goofball, a smart goober, a well-adjusted and socially-adept geek, and a devoutly religious misfit all at the same time.

Highlighting only those qualities of perfection sets up a pretty impossible standard to follow, doesn’t it? Everyone has something that makes them unique or strange to others.Your devoutly religious young man may be struggling inside with his attraction toward other men. Your strong and smart Scout may only eat PB and pickle sandwiches. Extreme illustrations, sure, but I hope you see the point.

A pedestal is no place for a young man or woman to live. In the words of one of my daughter’s friends recently, “We’re all weird!” - while simultaneously also being kind, caring, thoughtful, wise, and creative young people.

To me, that was and is what was great about Scouting: It provides a safe space for our youth to learn, experiment, explore, take risks and be themselves in a natural outdoors environment outside of the constraints of school and society. My troop had your traditional popular church-going perfect kids, sure. It also had a guy with some attention issues who really liked playing with fire; two brothers from a tough home life who acted out and needed some stability and security of a group to belong to; and one or two boys who wouldn’t meet your CO’s standards because I’m pretty sure they were gay. We were all Scouts, we were all weird, and the program helped us and supported all in different ways.

Edited June 19, 2018 by shortridge
Trying to fix the large font but can’t.

[ParkMan]

5 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

I just have to say I feel this ideology is egregiously false. Gender is an inherent, essential part of who we are. It is not at all fluid - a girl cannot become a man, nor can a boy become a woman. Those who disfigure their bodies in a desperate attempt to change from one to the other will only reap misery and regret. I refuse to accept that a boy who alters his biology to become, physically, a "woman," is a woman - he is still male inside, and nothing he does will ever change that. And vice versa. This, of course, is strongly related to my beliefs, which hold powerfully that we existed before we came to Earth, that we have s purpose for being here, and that we have an eternal destiny after this life. The deceit which claims we can change our sex or gender, just because we don't feel like we fit current societal perceptions of gender, is false. A male has always been and always will be male. A female has always been and always will be female. I am not fooled by modern suggestions that try to dis-establish the permanence of our sex - just because a child feels he doesn't fit the way the world personifies a man, doesn't mean he isn't one. The same for girls. I find the fact that this discussion is even current I find a sad commentary on the way the world perceives who it thinks we are.

Many kids who go through this do not change their biology.  For them, they do not need to.  They already feel that they are the other gender and so physical steps are not necessary.  But, yes, some do.

Again - all I'm asking is that we be mindful of the rhetoric around the Scouts - all the Scouts.  You may not have yet met a transgender kid, but it is coming.  These kids have hard enough life as it is.  @Hedgehog's crew sounds like a great group.  If you are some day faced with these kinds of decisions please simply do the same.

[Hedgehog]

4 hours ago, David CO said:

Pope Francis has made it clear that he does not agree with the concept of gender identity.

This isn't about agreeing with or understanding the concept of gender identity. I'll be the first to admit, I don't understand what those kids are thinking, feeling or going through.  I just know they are kids who need love and acceptance and who deserve a chance to get the benefits of Scouting.

4 hours ago, David CO said:

That is possibly the worst indictment of scouts and scouting that I have ever heard. The vast majority of my scouts have been strong, smart, well-adjusted, socially-adept, and devoutly religious. They don't fit your negative stereotypes at all.

I've got Scouts that outwardly are not normal -- one on the autism spectrum, one with Downs Syndrome, one in a wheelchair.  But with the rest of them it isn't evident until you get to know them.  I've got a Scout with hearing loss in one ear, a Scout who has an inner sadness because his Dad passed way when he was in middle school, a Scout who has a fear of fire because of a neighbor's house burning down.  I have several scouts who have been bullied including my 6 foot tall, 185 pound, 2nd degree black-belt, son who gets harassed because he follows rules, believes in what is right and just and because... wait for it... he is a Boy Scout and proudly wears Scouting shirts to school.  I have a bunch of Scouts who are shy and reserved and bookish or some would say socially-awkward.  But it amazing how those Scouts shine when they are with their fellow Scouts or when an adult recognizes their potential.  How about the Scout who was eating powdered sugar covered in maple syrup or the two Scouts that were having a contest to see how many spoonfuls of grape jelly they could eat -- that is definitely not normal. 

Are my Scouts strong - yep.  I'll put my 5 foot tall former Crew president against any Scout and she will win in any event.  Our Troop routinely wins the camp games at summer camp, not because we are the biggest or the strongest or the oldest but because my guys know that leadership means using every Scout in an event where they can shine.  Want to talk smart?  I spend most of December writing recommendations for Scouts for a National Honor Society.  On devoutly religious, the most religious Scout is one of my transgender youth.  That Scout learned sign language so to serve as an interpreter for someone who was completely deaf that joined their church.  

If you think any kid is normal, you haven't taken the time to get to know them.

See, the thing is that I don't see any of those "stereotypes" as negative.  I see them all as part of the amazingly wonderful people that have been drawn to our programs because each of needs Scouting for a different reason.  

[shortridge]

Bravo. Well said.

[Cambridgeskip]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

You may not have yet met a transgender kid, but it is coming.  

Alternatively many of us may well have met someone transgender without even realising it. 

It's still not an easy thing to admit to and many who are trans either don't admit to themselves are just keep quiet about it. 

[CalicoPenn]

17 hours ago, David CO said:

Being born into a gender, male or female, is a part of what it is to be human. Many plants and animals don't have a gender (or a fixed gender). I think it is very strange that some people will argue that my saying that people are born with a fixed gender is somehow denying that they are human. I feel that the opposite is true. Those who deny that people are born with a gender are denying their humanity, and are equating them with plants and animals.

Liberals need to start treating people like human beings.

You are not born in to a gender.  You are born in to a sex.  Gender is how one expresses themselves - and yes, it's as much a choice as choosing one's religion.  It's just a lot more uncommon to choose to express a gender that is opposite of one's sex. 

So liberals need to start treating people like human beings?  How is treating someone the way they want to be treated not treating people like human beings?   It's not liberals separating children from their parents and putting them in to internment camps on our southern border.  

[CalicoPenn]

7 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

I just have to say I feel this ideology is egregiously false. Gender is an inherent, essential part of who we are. It is not at all fluid - a girl cannot become a man, nor can a boy become a woman. Those who disfigure their bodies in a desperate attempt to change from one to the other will only reap misery and regret. I refuse to accept that a boy who alters his biology to become, physically, a "woman," is a woman - he is still male inside, and nothing he does will ever change that. And vice versa. This, of course, is strongly related to my beliefs, which hold powerfully that we existed before we came to Earth, that we have s purpose for being here, and that we have an eternal destiny after this life. The deceit which claims we can change our sex or gender, just because we don't feel like we fit current societal perceptions of gender, is false. A male has always been and always will be male. A female has always been and always will be female. I am not fooled by modern suggestions that try to dis-establish the permanence of our sex - just because a child feels he doesn't fit the way the world personifies a man, doesn't mean he isn't one. The same for girls. I find the fact that this discussion is even current I find a sad commentary on the way the world perceives who it thinks we are.

You are still confusing sex with gender.  Everything you've mentioned is about the sex of a person (and humans have been able to surgically change someone's sex for decades - we won't even get in to the animals that are able to change their sex to fit conditions).

 

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, CalicoPenn said:

You are not born in to a gender.  You are born in to a sex.  Gender is how one expresses themselves - and yes, it's as much a choice as choosing one's religion.  It's just a lot more uncommon to choose to express a gender that is opposite of one's sex. 

So liberals need to start treating people like human beings?  How is treating someone the way they want to be treated not treating people like human beings?   It's not liberals separating children from their parents and putting them in to internment camps on our southern border.  

Actually it is, or was. This all started when Obama used a loop hole in the law to leverage adults to claim asylum as a relatives of children. That is how uncles and aunts, great uncles and great great aunts are using the system to get into the US. Obama was just better at hiding it. Your use of moral high ground is as malleable as your uses of sex and gender.

Barry 

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Again - all I'm asking is that we be mindful of the rhetoric around the Scouts - all the Scouts.  You may not have yet met a transgender kid, but it is coming.  These kids have hard enough life as it is.  @Hedgehog's crew sounds like a great group.  If you are some day faced with these kinds of decisions please simply do the same.

 

1 hour ago, Hedgehog said:

If you think any kid is normal, you haven't taken the time to get to know them.

See, the thing is that I don't see any of those "stereotypes" as negative.  I see them all as part of the amazingly wonderful people that have been drawn to our programs because each of needs Scouting for a different reason.  

Well, I find all your self-righteous grandstanding sickening. Most of us hear have similar experiences as yours and most of us respond with similar reactions.

You have no proof that any scouter here has acted or will act otherwise. But you use our posts out of context to express judgemental accusations on most of the forum list.  In your hypocrisy, you are see all scouts as amazingly wonderful, but not all scouters.

This is a place where scouters have an open forum to express their thoughts on these subjects. But since many of the opinions aren't your opinions, you find the differences offensive. I hinted earlier that sometimes silence is the most powerful response to a post. But you can't help yourselves. Your emotions drive you to change us.

I lost respect you guys because you have no respect or trust for anyone who thinks differently than you. You can't guilt me to change, I have too much of real life experiences with real life people balanced with religion and pragmatic sense to fall into your shallow utopian vision. Folks who know me know that the "My way of the highway" doesn't work for me. I'm open minded about new ideas and approaches. But at the same time, I know what works and what doesn't. If you want to change the goals, fine. But don't get angry with those of us who don't accept your idealist progressive vision. Just accept that we go our way, you go yours. Remember, scouting is local.

You want heart tugging stories, I can pretty much match anyone here.  But if you think you are selling the better BSA, well you will have to contend with my real life experiences and the wisdom that was painfully forged from those experiences.

We all want a civil discussion of looking at life from our different perspectives. But when we start ranking each others moral character by our words, well something has to be said. 

Barry 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

If you think any kid is normal, you haven't taken the time to get to know them.

Yes, I have. Most of my students/scouts are normal.

This liberal culture of perceived victimhood and phony psycho-babble has really got out of hand.