Can a girl who gender identifies as a boy join a Scout troop now?

[shortridge]

40 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

A person can still be respected without supporting their behavior. ... Some believe supporting some behaviors is no less than child abuse. Encouraging volunteers of a national youth organization to support youth behavior they disagree with is encouraging an organization of child abuse.

Barry, you’re confusing behavior and identity. Behavior is how you manifest choices. Identity is who you are at the core.

If any volunteer feels that calling a girl by the name she and her parents prefer is “child abuse,” then they don’t have to be a volunteer any more.

[ParkMan]

55 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

 

 

There is this weird thing I try to hold on to, it's  called reality, and it is not dependent upon where I am be it a scout meeting, home or church.       " judge"?  where did that come into it?    I am not judging, I just don't agree.  These people have a condition ( I hope thats a non offensive term)  that I wish them all the luck in the word with, however they may wish to deal with it.   Just don't demand that I pretend that what is male is actually female or the other way around

Actually saying they have a condition is offensive. You don't pretend they are a boy - you accept that they are a boy

 

[awanatech]

2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Actually saying they have a condition is offensive. You don't pretend they are a boy - you accept that they are a boy

 

You accept them for something that they are not, correct? I'm sorry, but to call yourself a boy does not actually make you a boy. 

[ParkMan]

13 minutes ago, awanatech said:

You accept them for something that they are not, correct? I'm sorry, but to call yourself a boy does not actually make you a boy. 

The term is gender identity.  @shortridge describes it a few posts up.  In short - yes, if a person believes he is a boy, then his gender identity is that he is a boy.  You may not personally believe that - and that's fine.  But, in the context of Scouting - if a kid shows up and he and his parents say he is a boy - then yes, he's a boy.

Outside of Scouting, feel free to challenge that.  But, inside Scouting we support him.

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Barry, you’re confusing behavior and identity. Behavior is how you manifest choices. Identity is who you are at the core.

OK, let's try this: A person can still respect of another person without supporting their identity.

I show gay and transgender scouts the same respect that I show my gay and transgender friends and relatives, as well as my non-gay and non-transgender friends and relatives. Isn't that what living the Scout Oath and Law is all about?

21 minutes ago, shortridge said:

If any volunteer feels that calling a girl by the name she and her parents prefer is “child abuse,” then they don’t have to be a volunteer any more.

Thank you.

Barry

[Eagledad]

8 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

The term is gender identity.  @shortridge describes it a few posts up.  In short - yes, if a person believes he is a boy, then his gender identity is that he is a boy.  You may not personally believe that - and that's fine.  But, in the context of Scouting - if a kid shows up and he and his parents say he is a boy - then yes, he's a boy.

And you don't see this as a risk of abuse! Who decides gender identity, the parents or the youth? Do you not see yourself making my point of the BSA excusing abuse?

Barry

 

[qwazse]

Let's pull the reigns in on the runaway horse ...

28 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Barry, you’re confusing behavior and identity. Behavior is how you manifest choices. Identity is who you are at the core.

If any volunteer feels that calling a girl by the name she and her parents prefer is “child abuse,” then they don’t have to be a volunteer any more.

Woaaah, we can ill-afford to dismiss volunteers because they don't accept a cultural paradigm.

29 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Actually saying they have a condition is offensive. You don't pretend they are a boy - you accept that they are a boy

What's more important? To be called gender dysphoric yet accepted, or to have PC terms used about you and treated with disdain behind your back?

8 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

The term is gender identity.  @shortridge describes it a few posts up.  In short - yes, if a person believes he is a boy, then his gender identity is that he is a boy.  You may not personally believe that - and that's fine.  But, in the context of Scouting - if a kid shows up and he and his parents say he is a boy - then yes, he's a boy.

Outside of Scouting, feel free to challenge that.  But, inside Scouting we support him.

I'm sorry, but in my troop/crew cards get put on the table. Sometimes challenging is a form of support. Most of you all do is force scouts to face harsh realities and use that to build a youth's character.

The bottom line: until you meet one of these kids, you really can only deal with it in the abstract. And frankly, in the abstract is a lousy way to try to deal with it. Because the way your boys would deal with a girl (according to chromosomes) in this situation is completely different than anything you can imagine in your head.

Trying to tell somebody there's a pre-built way to handle it and they gotta step in line or step out, well, it just doesn't help.

[David CO]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

David, though we clearly disagree on key issues, you seem like a good person with the best interests of our youth at heart. Would you really walk up to a Scout and say to their face “You are not normal”? I doubt it.

No, I wouldn't. I don't go out of my way to insult people. But if a girl (or her parent) goes out of her way to approach me to insist that she is a boy, then yes, I would tell her to her face that she is wrong. She is a girl.

Edited June 18, 2018 by David CO

[NJCubScouter]

19 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I show gay and transgender scouts the same respect that I show my gay and transgender friends and relatives, as well as my non-gay and non-transgender friends and relatives.

Just out of curiosity, have you encountered gay and transgender Scouts?  I never have.  We apparently did have a gay Scout, but nobody knew that until after he had quit.

[Oldscout448]

 

Just now, NJCubScouter said:

Just out of curiosity, have you encountered gay and transgender Scouts?  I never have.  We apparently did have a gay Scout, but nobody knew that until after he had quit.

Both.   I treated them with the same respect as any one else.

[ParkMan]

12 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Let's pull the reigns in on the runaway horse ...

Woaaah, we can ill-afford to dismiss volunteers because they don't accept a cultural paradigm.

What's more important? To be called gender dysphoric yet accepted, or to have PC terms used about you and treated with disdain behind your back?

I'm sorry, but in my troop/crew cards get put on the table. Sometimes challenging is a form of support. Most of you all do is force scouts to face harsh realities and use that to build a youth's character.

The bottom line: until you meet one of these kids, you really can only deal with it in the abstract. And frankly, in the abstract is a lousy way to try to deal with it. Because the way your boys would deal with a girl (according to chromosomes) in this situation is completely different than anything you can imagine in your head.

Trying to tell somebody there's a pre-built way to handle it and they gotta step in line or step out, well, it just doesn't help.

I know two transgender youth.  I am not an expert of the topic, but understand it well enough to know where we need to start advocating on their behalf.  

Yes - these boys face a difficult life.  The last thing they need is a bunch of Scout leaders trying to tell them they are not normal.

My point was - and continues to be - that you need to leave these beliefs at home.  These kids need a little normalcy and the best thing you can do for them is to help them get it.

[ParkMan]

23 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

And you don't see this as a risk of abuse! Who decides gender identity, the parents or the youth? Do you not see yourself making my point of the BSA excusing abuse?

Barry

 

In my experience no parent wants the harder life the being transgender brings.  If you really don't believe that a kid is transgender, then report it as abuse.

[David CO]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

You just have to treat people and children like they are human beings

Being born into a gender, male or female, is a part of what it is to be human. Many plants and animals don't have a gender (or a fixed gender). I think it is very strange that some people will argue that my saying that people are born with a fixed gender is somehow denying that they are human. I feel that the opposite is true. Those who deny that people are born with a gender are denying their humanity, and are equating them with plants and animals.

Liberals need to start treating people like human beings.

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Just out of curiosity, have you encountered gay and transgender Scouts?  I never have.  We apparently did have a gay Scout, but nobody knew that until after he had quit.

No. We had several gay parents.

Most of my scouts are adults now and I know of one Eagle who has come out gay. None of us are surprised, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that he switch to heterosexual later. He had a lot of personal issues and a challenging behavior. He often used our troop activities as a place to vent.

Barry

 

[Eagledad]

6 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

In my experience no parent wants the harder life the being transgender brings.  If you really don't believe that a kid is transgender, then report it as abuse.

You are now contradicting yourself. If the BSA doesn't think supporting transgenders is abuse, then is it abuse?

I'ts kind of funny about scouts' behaviors. How often have you worked with a scout and then thinking to yourself after meeting the parents for the first time, "oh, well that makes sense".

Barry