Can a girl who gender identifies as a boy join a Scout troop now?

[The Latin Scot]

2 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

@The Latin Scot I understand and respect all of what you said in your post.  I think that what you said about making everyone feel loved, appreciated and safe is the common ground I was looking for.  If people start with an agreement on that idea, the disagreements become less heated and maybe as @Eagledad suggests, the discussion becomes more pragmatic. 

I agree. When we begin our discussions on common ground, it's easier to be compassionate and understanding when our paths do diverge.

[Cambridgeskip]

13 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

 But then I met two kids who were transgender and my viewpoint changed because I stopped thinking in the abstract and all of a sudden had to think about how my views of gender identity affected my interaction with these kids.  

I find this a really interesting experience and kind of ties in with my own experience, the first time I (knowingly) met anyone who was transgender.

I would have been about 21 at the time. I'd just finished university and was looking for my first "career move" job. In the mean time I had a whole series of short term jobs that kept the pennies trickling in. And I met a varierty of interesting people in the process! One of those jobs was I had a few days as temporary staff working on the railways here, specifically in the buffet car on intercity trains between Newcastle and Glasgow. I quite liked that job, while the pay was awful (it was before the days of the national minimum wage here) I am a dyed in the wool train geek. Absolutely love railways! On my first shift I got asked to take the driver his coffee. Before I took it down the buffet car manager took me aside and quietly warned me that the driver was a pre op transexual. Born male, in the process of changing to female. She just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be freaked out by it.

Walking down to the driver's cab I had to confess to being curious more than anything. As above I had not knowingly, at that time, met anyone who was transexual. I didn't know what to expect at all. It was all, I thought, new. Anyway I knocked on the cab door, she said come in, and in I went. It was a pretty quiet shift, frankly we'd been twiddling our thumbs in the buffet car, so I hung around a bit. I'd never ridden in the cab of a train before and was loving the experience. We got talking about railways generally and she pointed out some really interesting (to me and fellow train nerds!) stuff about the route and how it operated. By the time I had to go back and actually serve some customers (what I was actually being paid to do) I had forgotten that she was transexual and she was just a fellow train geek. There was nothing new to it at all.

It was a formative experience.

I don't pretend to understand what it's like to be transexual. I don't understand either the biology or psychology of it. What that experience did help me understand though was that someone who is transexual is just another human being. Their gender, unusual though that may seem to us who are, for what of a better word, "normal" is only one aspect of who they are. They have their interests, and their families, and their sense of humour and their preferred food and sports teams and things that irritate them. Same as the rest of us. I don't understand why someone is transexual, but neither do I understand why anyone would actually eat mayonnaise (condiment of the devil) or treat golf as a sepctator sport. But they do!

So I just try and take it all in my stride now.

The official (for now) separation of gender is BSA obviously adds a complication for you on your side of the pond. I can see how you have some additional practicalities to work through on that front. I honestly don't think though that it isn't something a spot of common sense and lateral thinking can't handle. My troop here is coed although we mostly have single sex tents on camp. We haven't (knowingly) had a trans scout in the troop yet, but I will worry about the practicalities as and when the day comes.

[David CO]

I have heard some version of this 3-act story about a thousand times. It starts with someone saying that they were once firm in their moral/religious beliefs. It then goes on to say that someone they know or someone they met has contradictory views. The story ends with the person altering his/her own moral/religious beliefs. It is the standard conversion story.

[Hawkwin]

16 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

It is NOT RIGHT for a man to try to act, dress, or try to be identified as a woman. It is NOT RIGHT for a woman to try to act, dress, or try to be identified as a man. 

 

 

The way we act and dress are entirely social and cultural (and religious) constructs that have clearly evolved since the time of Abraham (and prior).

[qwazse]

10 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

The way we act and dress are entirely social and cultural (and religious) constructs that have clearly evolved since the time of Abraham (and prior).

I think "revolved" is a more appropriate term. Not sure how far 'prior' you're talking about, but the record indicates that Abram in his sojourn across the fertile crescent encountered cultural and religious constructs quite similar to ours. The entire point of Moses' Genesis is to present the panoply of ethnic groups his people could yoke themselves to -- in contrast to the nation they should become, which is really first presented in Exodus.

Our kids' middle school had a project to present a great human invention. Every year I suggested to them that there one invention that universally sets humans of all stripes apart: clothes. How we dress is an unspoken declaration of how we will act (and allow ourselves to be acted upon) within our culture. No other invention has such universal symbolism. (Money comes in at a distant second.)

[Hawkwin]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

I think "revolved" is a more appropriate term. Not sure how far 'prior' you're talking about, but the record indicates that Abram in his sojourn across the fertile crescent encountered cultural and religious constructs quite similar to ours.

I think if you dressed today as Abraham did, people might think you are in 1) in a period play or 2) in drag. How we act and "dress" has evolved. Another example is that you probably don't kiss other men on each cheek as you great them today. That is an "act" that has evolved.

Our kids' middle school had a project to present a great human invention. Every year I suggested to them that there one invention that universally sets humans of all stripes apart: clothes. How we dress is an unspoken declaration of how we will act (and allow ourselves to be acted upon) within our culture. No other invention has such universal symbolism. (Money comes in at a distant second.)

Yet every culture and every time period has a different bit of symbolism. Again, entirely social constructs. Quick story - when I was in the Army in the early 90's I was deployed to Egypt. I was quite shocked by the affection otherwise straight men gave to other men. They hugged, kissed, even held hands. I automatically assumed that they were gay. This was long before the internet and "Ok Google" and it wasn't until years later that I learned that such otherwise odd behavior, that this "act" was common in their culture and was actually a way to express warm hetero affection between two men.

Who am I to tell someone what is the RIGHT way to act or dress as a man or woman? Every culture, every society, even every time period is a little bit different. There was a time not long ago in the US where women wearing pants was scandalous. Today, we don't think women wearing pants is trying to "act like a man" (and long before that, men wore skirts and wigs and tights too of course).

"We are born naked, the rest is drag." Rupaul.

 

[shortridge]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

I have heard some version of this 3-act story about a thousand times. It starts with someone saying that they were once firm in their moral/religious beliefs. It then goes on to say that someone they know or someone they met has contradictory views. The story ends with the person altering his/her own moral/religious beliefs. It is the standard conversion story.

If it was good enough for Paul, it’s good enough for me.

Not quite sure what your point is, David. Can you elaborate?

[David CO]

13 minutes ago, shortridge said:

If it was good enough for Paul, it’s good enough for me.

Paul was converted to Christianity by a blinding light from Heaven and the voice of Jesus Christ. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by David CO

[David CO]

30 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Not quite sure what your point is, David. Can you elaborate?

This is one of the standard boiler-plate arguments that is used over and over by liberals who wish to attack traditional religions. It has become a cliché.

Edited June 20, 2018 by David CO

[Cambridgeskip]

25 minutes ago, David CO said:

This is one of the standard boiler-plate arguments that is used over and over by liberals who wish to attack traditional religions. It has become a cliché.

David I can assure you that I for one was not seeking to attack a religion. I am Christian myself, why would I?

The simply point I was making was about life experience and how I found reality somewhat more straight forward and easier to handle than what I had expected.

[Hedgehog]

@Cambridgeskip, it's not you, it's me.  @David CO 's "three act story" comment was a jab at me and an attempt to discredit what I've said.  I've written and deleted three responses and then realized that I don't need to justify my experience, my story or the depth of my faith to him or anyone else on this forum.  If what I've posted helped some people to move toward a common ground, than I'm glad.  For others, nothing I can write will make any difference because they are focused on winning the argument rather than seeking to understand.  As a result, this is my last post in this thread.

[The Latin Scot]

7 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

The way we act and dress are entirely social and cultural (and religious) constructs that have clearly evolved since the time of Abraham (and prior).

But to intentionally dress TODAY in a manner that conveys the identity of the opposite sex, as I see it, wrong. It's the intent, not the technicalities of what is done to accomplish it. So I don't see how this argument relates at all to the subject at hand. If a person dresses in a style that people associate as pertaining to that of the opposite gender, specifically to bend one's perception of their actual sex, is wrong. It demeans who they really are, and who they are meant to be. 

[NJCubScouter]

Anyone can have whatever opinion they want about transgender-ism (it's not really an "ism" but I don't know what else to call it in one word), but what this thread is apparently about is, given that the BSA policy is what it is, how should the BSA deal with someone who first registers as male and then re-registers as female in order to "game the system" and become the first female Eagle Scout.  My reaction is as follows:

One, I really hope that nobody actually tries to do that.  It is not what Scouting is all about, and would not reflect well on that person - and most likely their parents, who I suspect would be the people who actually dreamed up such a thing.

Two, if someone does try to do it, I hope the BSA does not permit them to do it.  I support the current policy, although as I have said before, I think the wording could use some tightening up, with the GSUSA wording being the model.  I do not support allowing games to be played with the policy.

Three, in a perfect world, or even a better world, nobody would care who the first female Eagle was anyway.  Advancement is not supposed to be race against other people.  But there I go, daydreaming again.

Edited June 20, 2018 by NJCubScouter

[Hawkwin]

1 hour ago, The Latin Scot said:

But to intentionally dress TODAY in a manner that conveys the identity of the opposite sex, as I see it, wrong.

And you are completely welcome to that opinion and I don't judge you based on such, but I hope you acknowledge that it is opinion. Even if your faith proscribed or had a specific doctrine on proper attire for men and women (I am not aware that you faith does but some do), then I would hope you would no more want to force such behaviors on all scouts (not just those in your unit) than you would want Mennonites to force their own clothing opinions/doctrines onto all scouts.

If I understand your faith correctly, being attracted to someone of the same sex is not a sin, but acting on it is (much like premarital stuff is with many faiths). It does not appear that cross-dressing or any other form of "platonic" gender dysphoria is an actual sin but I freely admit I am no expert (or even a layman) but Elder Dallin seems to suggest that Mormons are starting to view gender and birth sex as two different things.

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2112602&itype=CMSID

Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles states, "This question concerns transgender, and I think we need to acknowledge that while we have been acquainted with lesbians and homosexuals for some time, being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had so much experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that."

Lastly, I am sure you are familiar with your own Brigham Morris Young's history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Morris_Young

Brigham Morris Young (January 18, 1854–February 20, 1931 (aged 77)) was one of the founders of the Young Men's Mutual Improvement Association (YMMIA), the predecessor to the Young Men program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church).

...

Shortly after returning to Utah, Young began publicly performing as a cross-dressing singer under the pseudonym Madam Pattirini.[1][2][3] Young performed as Pattirini in north and central Utah venues from 1885 to the 1900s. He could produce a convincing falsetto, and many in the audience did not realize that Pattirini was Young.

-----------------------

If the founder of your own Young Men movement was a cross-dresser for at least 15 years, then I would certainly think the church would allow for some grace on this issue.

[JoeBob]

3 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

One, I really hope that nobody actually tries to do that.  It is not what Scouting is all about, and would not reflect well on that person - and most likely their parents, who I suspect would be the people who actually dreamed up such a thing.

Two, if someone does try to do it, I hope the BSA does not permit them to do it.  I do not support allowing games to be played with the policy.

You know, I hope several girls sign up this week as boys.  It's allowable: Irving can't question the gender selection on the application.  It's strategic: why wait on BSA national to get off the stick?  Everybody knows that co-ed is coming.  Why should BSA penalize my daughter because they can't make up their mind?

Why my cavalier attitude?  I think that BSA National deserves some of their own medicine.  No gays!  Ummmm...  No atheist Eagles! Well...  Certainly no gay leaders for our children to role model.   Well you see...  No girls!

I'd like to see lots of 'boys' with pigtails sign up immediately and change their minds 2 years from now after Irving changes their edict.

How's it feel?