Can a girl who gender identifies as a boy join a Scout troop now?

[Kryten]

2 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

You are not born in to a gender.  You are born in to a sex.  Gender is how one expresses themselves - and yes, it's as much a choice as choosing one's religion.  It's just a lot more uncommon to choose to express a gender that is opposite of one's sex. 

So liberals need to start treating people like human beings?  How is treating someone the way they want to be treated not treating people like human beings?   It's not liberals separating children from their parents and putting them in to internment camps on our southern border.  

It was under the Obama administration. 

But that doesn't fit the naritive. 

[MattR]

Okay, let's all step back a bit.

When we start talking about liberals, Trump and Obama we're well past trying to come to agreement.

The OP was about parents gaming the system to have their kid be the first female eagle. Here's a solution to that problem: Don't number the first 1000 female eagles. Oh, and call the parents on the obvious gaming.

[ParkMan]

25 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

 

Well, I find all your self-righteous grandstanding sickening. Most of us hear have similar experiences as yours and most of us respond with similar reactions.

You have no proof that any scouter here has acted or will act otherwise. But you use our posts out of context to express judgemental accusations on most of the forum list.  In your hypocrisy, you are see all scouts as amazingly wonderful, but not all scouters.

This is a place where scouters have an open forum to express their thoughts on these subjects. But since many of the opinions aren't your opinions, you find the differences offensive. I hinted earlier that sometimes silence is the most powerful response to a post. But you can't help yourselves. Your emotions drive you to change us.

I lost respect you guys because you have no respect or trust for anyone who thinks differently than you. You can't guilt me to change, I have too much of real life experiences with real life people balanced with religion and pragmatic sense to fall into your shallow utopian vision. Folks who know me know that the "My way of the highway" doesn't work for me. I'm open minded about new ideas and approaches. But at the same time, I know what works and what doesn't. If you want to change the goals, fine. But don't get angry with those of us who don't accept your idealist progressive vision. Just accept that we go our way, you go yours. Remember, scouting is local.

You want heart tugging stories, I can pretty much match anyone here.  But if you think you are selling the better BSA, well you will have to contend with my real life experiences and the wisdom that was painfully forged from those experiences.

We all want a civil discussion of looking at life from our different perspectives. But when we start ranking each others moral character by our words, well something has to be said. 

Barry 

Barry,

You don't know me.  I did not start name calling. I think you started the self righteousness comments towards me.  I've bent over backwards to make my point without criticizing anyone's beliefs.  I simply said that I am concerned that given the consistent comments in this discussion about transgender kids not being normal it would become spill over into similar comments to this kids themselves.  Is that such a stretch when we had a post from one of our members who didn't even want to even be in the same summer camp as transgender kids?  In other places, I'd say that a number of the posts use "charged words" - language which is itself inflammatory.

I am far from a progressive liberal.  I've been a registered Republican all my life, generally vote conservative, listen to Fox news, frustrate my much more liberal family.  Yet, I will admit that I struggle with this forum.  I appreciate that we have this place to share experiences, but I find there is a very conservative tone that is very negative about these kinds of issues.  If we were debating politics, I would take a very different tone.  But, so many of these topics are about excluding groups of people from Scouting.  Don't let in gays or transgender people - that's basically what we're talking about.

I only spend my time on it here because this isn't a local forum.  You want to sit around with your local friends and make comments about kids in Scouting - fine.  But, this is a national forum.  It is not local.  So, please don't be surprised when people who live these issues make a counterpoint.

[Eagle1993]

5 minutes ago, MattR said:

Okay, let's all step back a bit.

When we start talking about liberals, Trump and Obama we're well past trying to come to agreement.

The OP was about parents gaming the system to have their kid be the first female eagle. Here's a solution to that problem: Don't number the first 1000 female eagles. Oh, and call the parents on the obvious gaming.

I think setting the date for the first female  Eagle BOR would make sense. Then Nationals should approve the first group of female Eagle Scouts on the same date.  

I have no idea how they would handle someone who selected “boy” and is a current star scout and then selects “girl” on an application change Feb 1, 2019.  That will probably happen.  I would think Nationals should investigate those cases and take appropriate action if they lied on their original application.  As I mentioned, someone admitted to this in a FB comment that this was their plan. After being called out on this by some fairly senior volunteers the person stopped commenting.  I don’t think this will end well for those gaming the system. 

[oldbuzzard]

19 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

Different question.    hopefully an easier one.    where  will a trans ( female to male ) scout tent?   

with the girls patrol? then we are not treating her/him as a boy. 

  the boys? scary   

  alone?   ostracizing 

Back to practicality and away from the culture war....

This one really is easy. The scout tents with their patrol. They are in a patrol based on the gender checked on their registration form.

I've known a couple of trans scouts over the last 10+ years. They all camped with their male Boy Scout patrols. Except for select leadership, on a need to know basis, the fact these kids are trans isn't even disclosed(So maybe I've known more than I think). Tenting was never an issue. Our camp showers and latrines are stalled these days. Outings like the city pool with communal showers and locker rooms could be an issue, but all the kids shower in swim suits and plenty of kids including the oldest "manliest" ones change in bathroom stalls for modesty reasons so it has never been an issue. 

I view the trans issue the same way I view gay scouts. It is a non-issue practically. I have no idea how many gay scouts I've known over the years because it isn't relevant to the program. Often the best clue is during the  Eagle COHs when the parents get misty eyed about what a blessing this or that troop was for their son and how  great it is to be with an open and affirming church. I think trans scouts will be the same way.

[Jameson76]

20 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

Different question.    hopefully an easier one.    where  will a trans ( female to male ) scout tent?   

with the girls patrol? then we are not treating her/him as a boy. 

  the boys? scary   

  alone?   ostracizing 

An intriguing question.  If they identify as a male, you would treat as a male, but with tenting if not all are looped in could be a surprise.  Luckily there are hammocks

[oldbuzzard]

6 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

An intriguing question.  If they identify as a male, you would treat as a male, but with tenting if not all are looped in could be a surprise.  Luckily there are hammocks

How so? Plenty of scouts don't change clothes on campouts or change in sleeping bags. Other issues  could go to known adult leaders. From a PL perspective, I need to talk to SM/ASM X should always be honored. The adult leader can always push back on frivolous requests, regardless of cause. Yes in a hypothetical emergency situation it could be an issue but in every day situations where is the surprise?

[David CO]

44 minutes ago, oldbuzzard said:

How so? Plenty of scouts don't change clothes on campouts or change in sleeping bags.

No kidding? They change their clothes in sleeping bags? 

[shortridge]

13 minutes ago, David CO said:

No kidding? They change their clothes in sleeping bags? 

Is this sarcasm?

It’s a very handy trick in cold weather. Your clothes are already in your bag overnight to warm up. Requires mastery of The Shimmy. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by shortridge

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, oldbuzzard said:

How so? Plenty of scouts don't change clothes on campouts or change in sleeping bags. Other issues  could go to known adult leaders. From a PL perspective, I need to talk to SM/ASM X should always be honored. The adult leader can always push back on frivolous requests, regardless of cause. Yes in a hypothetical emergency situation it could be an issue but in every day situations where is the surprise?

The surprise was not so much the scouts I was referring to.  You may be assuming a 100% enlightened and welcoming group of parents, not saying they may not be, but there could be some pushback in the tenting case.  While we work to provide program to youth, those youth are part of a family, that does have to be considered.  There are a myriad of potential items to consider so there are in fact no surprises.   This is the real world, and not a sociology class.

[Hedgehog]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Well, I find all your self-righteous grandstanding sickening.

I didn't intend to be self-righteous or grandstanding.  If I came across that way, I apologize.  My purpose was to encourage people to look at this a different way.

Let me tell you a bit about myself.  I'm very conservative - voted Republican every time except once where I voted for a third-party candidate that was more conservative.  I'm Catholic and take my Church's teachings on issues like sexuality, abortion and compassion very seriously.  If you asked me about transgender kids three years ago, my response would have been to consider those kids abnormal freaks (my words, not any of yours) that I wouldn't want in my Troop, Crew or to be friends with my kid.  But then I met two kids who were transgender and my viewpoint changed because I stopped thinking in the abstract and all of a sudden had to think about how my views of gender identity affected my interaction with these kids.  I still don't wholly agree with this transgender thing and I truly don't understand it.   I can tell you that some parents of transgender youth have similar feelings.  However, I know these two kids and they are good kids and good Scouts.  I focus on that because, ultimately, that is more important.

So yes, my views have changed and I am passionate about it.  And yes, I do get a bit defensive about the Scouts in my Troop and especially my Crew.  So don't mistake my passion, emotion and defensiveness as being self-righteous.

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Most of us hear have similar experiences as yours and most of us respond with similar reactions.

You have no proof that any scouter here has acted or will act otherwise. But you use our posts out of context to express judgemental accusations on most of the forum list.  In your hypocrisy, you are see all scouts as amazingly wonderful, but not all scouters.

That was the goal of my post.  I wanted to try to reach some common ground where we could disagree on the underlying concepts / beliefs regarding gender identity but agree that when it comes to a kid interested in Scouting, we would be there for them no matter what gender they identify with.  

If by taking things out of context, you are referring to my use of the term "normal", my intent was not to make other people's use of that term seem negative but to "own" that term by pointing out that everyone is not normal in some way.

Barry, I have a sense of who you are from being on the forums.  I do believe that if you had a transgender Scout that you would treat them with dignity regardless of whether you Chartered Organization would permit them to join your Troop.  I also believe that David would treat a transgender student in his school with compassion and dignity.  I hope everyone who has chimed in on this thread would do the same.  Based on the circumstances I found myself in, I've done a lot of reading on the topic.  I still don't understand the "how" or the "why", but I've come to understand the "what" -- that these kids are struggling with who they are, sometimes at an existential level.    I can help with that even without knowing the answers to how and why.  That doesn't make me a better person, it is simply how I reacted when life put me in a situation where my karma ran over my dogma.

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

This is a place where scouters have an open forum to express their thoughts on these subjects. But since many of the opinions aren't your opinions, you find the differences offensive. I hinted earlier that sometimes silence is the most powerful response to a post. But you can't help yourselves. Your emotions drive you to change us.

I tried to stay out, but you are right... I can't help myself because I'm emotionally invested in this issue.  For some reason that I"ll never be able to figure out, I've stumbled across two great kids that happen to be transgender.  I don't want to change your opinions.  I"m really not even sure what my opinion is.  What I want to do is to put a thought in the back of someone's mind that the important word in the phrase "transgender kid" is "kid."

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I lost respect you guys because you have no respect or trust for anyone who thinks differently than you. You can't guilt me to change, I have too much of real life experiences with real life people balanced with religion and pragmatic sense to fall into your shallow utopian vision. Folks who know me know that the "My way of the highway" doesn't work for me. I'm open minded about new ideas and approaches. But at the same time, I know what works and what doesn't. If you want to change the goals, fine. But don't get angry with those of us who don't accept your idealist progressive vision. Just accept that we go our way, you go yours.

I don't consider offering a different perspective "guilting you" into change.  I've never said that anyone's view is wrong and have never disparaged anyone.  I try to follow Richard Covey's "seek first to understand, then to be understood."  I think I do understand your perspective and I was asking you to understand mine.  You don't have to agree with me, but to just understand mine.  

I don't think my vision of scouting is either utopian or liberal.  I acknowledge that the world is a pretty tough place, that our kids have to deal with so much crap that we didn't, that life is imperfect and that disappointments hurt us more deeply than success heal us.  I do treasure what little difference I can make in any Scout's life.  I've heard the stories of the Scoutmaster's that Scouts remember years later and I aspire to have at least one of those stories.  I do believe in living by the Scout Oath and Law and by my faith.  But I'm not perfect in either area, but that doesn't keep me from trying.  I try to run my units by the BSA guidelines and as envisioned by Baden-Powell and Hillcourt, but I am not perfect there either.  If I was going to provide my vision, it would be that Scouts provides a place to learn character and leadership among friends primarily in the outdoors.  I don't think that is either liberal or utopian.  Maybe you are seeing the side of me that is an unceasing optimist.

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Remember, scouting is local.

My point in that thread is we should judge the Scouting program and our beliefs by what we are doing in our Troops, Crews and Packs to help kids.  

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

You want heart tugging stories, I can pretty much match anyone here.  But if you think you are selling the better BSA, well you will have to contend with my real life experiences and the wisdom that was painfully forged from those experiences.

Barry, I'd love to hear those stories.  For me, that is what Scouting is about.  I apologize if my stories somehow offended you.  I"m proud of my kid and I'm proud of the kids in my Troop and Crew.  I have to deal with much of the same BS from parents, Council, National, etc as everyone else, but what keeps me doing what I do is that I actually see kids benefiting from the program.  I know that isn't exclusive to me and you probably have had a lot more kids pass through your program that I have, but that is what makes it worth while to me.

I'm not selling the BSA better than anyone else... at least that I know of.  I have no idea how any of your Troops are run.  I know what I'm doing that seems to work.  If someone can learn from what I'm doing - great, if someone can get there by doing something else - great.  I also know that I can improve and always welcome suggestions

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

We all want a civil discussion of looking at life from our different perspectives. But when we start ranking each others moral character by our words, well something has to be said. 

My intent wasn't to impute anyone's moral character, but to have people look at things differently.  As I said, a hypothetical debate is different than when you have a kid in front of you who wants to join Scouting.

3 hours ago, David CO said:

This liberal culture of perceived victimhood and phony psycho-babble has really got out of hand. 

I've never said any of my Scouts were victims.  Far from it.  They are kids learning to deal with the problems of life.  

[Eagledad]

My apologies to Hedgehog and Parkman for going too far with my response. I tend to be a bit defensive when posters demonize adult leaders to make a point. I'm will step back and say that while that is how I interpreted their post, I was wrong.

It's one thing to reflect on experiences, but something different when strawmen are the excuse to preach. I am just as defensive with posters who attack scouts the same way. The subjects of scouts and scouters with different non typical sexual identities are difficult because there is a broad opinions on the subjects. Which is fine, I enjoy different perspectives. But when posters start referencing their opinion as, how can I say this, morally superior, then my patience is challenged. I would rather a pragmatic explanation of each other opinion and move on. We don't have to agree. In fact, we will not agree much of the time. But at least we can have the civil discussion. 

If my way of directing discussions more pragmatically seems annoying, just talk to my family. It drives them crazy. I guess it is the engineer in me, but I like folks to get to the point quickly and without emotion. Of course, I quickly become a hypocrite, and I know it. But I'm trying to get better. 

 

Barry

[The Latin Scot]

9 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

You are still confusing sex with gender.  Everything you've mentioned is about the sex of a person (and humans have been able to surgically change someone's sex for decades - we won't even get in to the animals that are able to change their sex to fit conditions).

Aaahhhh ... but you see, 

I'm not. 

Almost the entire strength of your argument lies in that idea though - that gender is a choice, something you can pick and choose and create on your own. If that assumption were correct, then what you say might be true.

But it isn't. 

I am perfectly cognizant of the difference between gender and sex which you are trying to impose on my opinions. But I do not believe in that differentiation, not in the way you promote it. Gender is NOT fluid, it is not a choice - it's an essential part of who we are. And it is possible for a person to behave and act according to the nature of the wrong gender. This is a nearly incendiary platform to assume when compared to the bent of today's shifting worldviews, but I firmly and clearly recognize that there is a right and a wrong to the way we live up to our sex AND GENDER. It is NOT RIGHT for a man to try to act, dress, or try to be identified as a woman. It is NOT RIGHT for a woman to try to act, dress, or try to be identified as a man. 

Now, some of you have wrongly assumed that this perspective is hateful, and that if I ever were to meet such a person, that I would somehow treat them unkindly, that I would be so utterly callous that I would speak down to them, insult them, or otherwise treat them as less than those who follow more closely the beliefs that I hold dear. Just wait until you meet them, you say.

But I have met such a person. I have met many of them! (I live in Southern California for pity's sake, we have EVERYTHING here)

And my understanding of their behavior is totally unrelated to my love for them as people - and as I look at them, as children of God. My brothers and sisters. Children who had a gender and a sex that was part of their nature even before they were born.

Why should a person's actions affect how I treat them? I have my own flaws and failings; it would be preposterous for me to treat them with any less love and respect than that which I hope to receive myself. I love them, with all my heart. Which is all the more reason for me to try and share what I believe is true - that sex and gender are one, and that happiness only comes when we can truly say that we are doing what is right, not what we want to be right. But our job is to do what we can to help EVERYBODY feel loved, appreciated, and safe. The way the live their life is irrelevant.

It is, frankly, silly and immature to asert that those who do not believe in gender fluidity are somehow therefore unkind or prejudiced against those who subscribe to that lifestyle. Those two are not related, however much useful their connection would be to the argument of those who try to support it; if they could make those who oppose gender fluidity into villians, it would certainly garner them an emotional edge. But those of use who want these people to recognize who they really are, not who they think they want to be, must remember always the beautiful counsel given by Thomas S. Monson:

Never let a problem to be solved become more important than a person to be loved.

[Hedgehog]

@The Latin Scot I understand and respect all of what you said in your post.  I think that what you said about making everyone feel loved, appreciated and safe is the common ground I was looking for.  If people start with an agreement on that idea, the disagreements become less heated and maybe as @Eagledad suggests, the discussion becomes more pragmatic.  

[Oldscout448]

it's a pleasure to listen to people talk about a very charged and difficult subject like adults.   All too often such  issues tend to devolve into finger pointing,  yelling, and  ad hominem  attacks.   

Thank you Gentlemen