Can a girl who gender identifies as a boy join a Scout troop now?

[Oldscout448]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Actually saying they have a condition is offensive. You don't pretend they are a boy - you accept that they are a boy

 

 If that case, I'm afraid they/you will have to get used to being offended.  It happens a lot in every ones life.   

Again,  I decline to join in this suddenly popular belief that  sexes magically  transform.    That XX =XY    They want to fly with that?   OK  It's a free country.   

  You want to identify as a cow and sleep in a barn?   Go for it.  Have fun.  But your DNA still reads as human.   again reality

I have not, do not and will not demand that others share my beliefs and viewpoints.   I expect the same courtesy in return.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Oldscout448

[NJCubScouter]

40 minutes ago, David CO said:

No, I wouldn't. I don't go out of my way to insult people. But if a girl (or her parent) goes out of her way to approach me to insist that she is a boy, then yes, I would tell her to her face that she is wrong. She is a girl.

If you would do that in a non-Scouting context, I have no comment.  But if you would do that in a Scouting context, for example where the young person and/or his parents is seeking to join your unit, that doesn't sound very Scoutlike to me.  Not to mention it would be against BSA policy.  I think the proper answer to such a prospective Scout, for someone who believes as you do, would be "You should contact the council and they will find a proper troop for you/your child."

[NJCubScouter]

7 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

That XX =XY

It's scientific fact that there is a very small percentage of people who are neither XX nor XY, though I guess that is not what we are primarily talking about here.

[Oldscout448]

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

Barry, you’re confusing behavior and identity. Behavior is how you manifest choices. Identity is who you are at the core.

If any volunteer feels that calling a girl by the name she and her parents prefer is “child abuse,” then they don’t have to be a volunteer any more.

The topic aside here,  it seems the height of arrogance to tell anyone that unless they hold a certain viewpoint, they should resign

[NJCubScouter]

4 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

The topic aside here,  it seems the height of arrogance to tell anyone that unless they hold a certain viewpoint, they should resign

I'm not sure about the "height of arrogance," but as someone who was told that on a number of occasions in this forum over 13 years, because I did not believe the BSA should automatically exclude gay persons as leaders, I agree that it is best not to say that to people - on either "side."

Edited June 18, 2018 by NJCubScouter

[Oldscout448]

4 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I'm not sure about the "height of arrogance," but as someone who was told that on a number of occasions in this forum over 13 years, because I did not believe the BSA should automatically exclude gay persons as leaders, I agree.  It is best not to say that to people - on either "side."

 Hmmm,  you have a  good point.  How about "   well up the slope"  instead of " the  height"

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Oldscout448

[shortridge]

7 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

The topic aside here,  it seems the height of arrogance to tell anyone that unless they hold a certain viewpoint, they should resign

I’m not telling anyone they should do anything except act like a Scout. But if you believe the program and the membership standards are the equivalent of child abuse, then perhaps it’s not the right fit for you.

[shortridge]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

And you don't see this as a risk of abuse! Who decides gender identity, the parents or the youth? Do you not see yourself making my point of the BSA excusing abuse?

As has been explained elsewhere, the parent signs the membership application and this has to “sign off” on their child’s gender identity.

How does abuse come in to play? I’m really not seeing your point.

[Oldscout448]

Ah, thank you for the 

49 minutes ago, shortridge said:

I’m not telling anyone they should do anything except act like a Scout. But if you believe the program and the membership standards are the equivalent of child abuse, then perhaps it’s not the right fit for you.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.    then we have no argument  on that score.   Apologies 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Oldscout448

[David CO]

35 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Not to mention it would be against BSA policy.

BSA doesn't get to set religious policy for my church. If a scout and/or her parents don't like my religion, they shouldn't have come to us in the first place.

[ParkMan]

29 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

 If that case, I'm afraid they/you will have to get used to being offended.  It happens a lot in every ones life.   

Again,  I decline to join in this suddenly popular belief that  sexes magically  transform.    That XX =XY    They want to fly with that?   OK  It's a free country.   

  You want to identify as a cow and sleep in a barn?   Go for it.  Have fun.  But your DNA still reads as human.   again reality

I have not, do not and will not demand that others share my beliefs and viewpoints.   I expect the same courtesy in return.

I mean this in the nicest way possible - but it does not matter to me what your personal beliefs are on this topic.  My point is that as Scouters we need to leave our personal feelings on this topic at home.

If a transgender kid shows up in your troop you need to accept him and support his involvement in Scouting.  The scout should never know that you disagree with the guidance of his family (and probably a healthy number of professionals) on his gender identity. Again - it's is not our place as Scouters to do discourage Scouts who are transgender.

I'm making this point because it would be wrong for me to leave the impression that it's okay for Scouters to be offensive to transgender Scouts.

Of course there is an exception is for units where the CO objects.  But - that's not what we're talking about here.

[Gwaihir]

5 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

Gender is a social and cultural construct - not biological (its a common error to use gender when what one really means is sex).  Since gender is not biological, it is very fluid - both on an individual level and on a societal level. 

Why would it be a bad thing to use language that does not reflect a gender bias in school?  Is it  really that difficult for people to say "firefighter" instead of "fireman" or "police officer" instead of "policeman" or "flight attendant" instead of "stewardess"?

As for "the fact that the BSA now holds that a child can participate in Scouting as whichever gender they choose", why stress over it now - it's a moot point next year. 

Do you also subscribe to the notion there are over 200 genders?  

[ItsBrian]

5 hours ago, David CO said:

Scouting should be an activity where all boys are treated normal. Transgender is not normal. 

I don’t think David meant transgenders as bad people or wierdos, I believe he just thinks they are not normal since it’s common in this generation. 

[shortridge]

5 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

As for "the fact that the BSA now holds that a child can participate in Scouting as whichever gender they choose", why stress over it now - it's a moot point next year. 

I missed this the first time around. @CalicoPenn, how is it a moot point next year? The issue of trans Scouts will still come in to play as their families approach single-gender Cub packs and Scout troops and are turned away or treated as “not normal” based not upon a CO’s preferences and policies, but on the prejudices and personal beliefs of an individual direct contact leader. Or am I missing something here?

We’re going to need a lot more pins on the BeAScout site to determine who a unit will accept.

Edited June 18, 2018 by shortridge

[Oldscout448]

15 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I mean this in the nicest way possible - but it does not matter to me what your personal beliefs are on this topic.  My point is that as Scouters we need to leave our personal feelings on this topic at home.

If a transgender kid shows up in your troop you need to accept him and support his involvement in Scouting.  The scout should never know that you disagree with the guidance of his family (and probably a healthy number of professionals) on his gender identity. Again - it's is not our place as Scouters to do discourage Scouts who are transgender.

I'm making this point because it would be wrong for me to leave the impression that it's okay for Scouters to be offensive to transgender Scouts.

Of course there is an exception is for units where the CO objects.  But - that's not what we're talking about here.

thank you.   I think we may just be arguing two different although related things here.

I am going to try to saw this with as few details as possible,    I sat on a trans scouts BoR   last a little while ago.   the question of gender identity  never came up,   National has deemed it a nonissue so insofar as passing a rank it shouldn't.     Nor should it be one when joining , if the CO is fine with it.   Do I think she is a he?   No.       How does that offend ?     

What does offend me is being told  that I must be affirming, supportive ,and even encouraging  towards something that i think ( not feel) has no basis in science , and if I am not then I have some sort of phobia.   To be fair you have not done so, nor has anyone else here.