Article- The male crisis thats ruining our boys

[CalicoPenn]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 6:24 PM, Gwaihir said:

That's fair... but the Underground Railroad and the Righteous Gentiles of WW2, while they served their roles in history... were ultimately ineffective to the overall goal compared to the likes of Normandy or Gettysburg. 

I don't know about the Righteous Gentiles of WW2 but the overall goal of the Underground Railroad was to help slaves escape to northern states and to Canada.  It was not to end slavery - it was to allow slaves to escape to freedom.  I would suggest that the Underground Railroad was very effective in meeting the goal.  It had the added bonus of galvanizing and solidifying anti-slavery sentiments in the northern states - making the opposition to slavery real as opposed to theoretical - turning citizens to action rather than just nodding in agreement to editorials in newspapers.

Illinois has a number of Underground Railroad stations - fortunately, some of the communities that had stations on the Underground Railroad are including that history in their communities history.  I've read a few accounts in local history museums that talk about their own local Underground Railroad stations and how people in these communities that were not stops on the railroad would bamboozle fugitive slave hunters to protect the "guests" of their communities. 

[Eagledad]

4 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

Seems the consensus is to drop the non-active merit badges in favor of more outdoor/activity oriented merit badges.  I thought about it in terms of the mission of the BSA:

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

I don't see anything in the mission of the Boy Scouts of America or in the Scout Oath and Law about Scouts becoming better outdoorsmen.  Its all about making ethical and moral choices.  Its about, as the DRP puts it, becoming the best kind of citizen.

Its those non-active merit badges that seem to fit in much more with the mission that the active merit badges.  Just something to ponder, I think.

I wish more leaders would look at the mission "First", then build the program. Once in a blue moon, Calicoe and I agree.

Still, we need to remember the program is for the average boy and the average Boy Scout does't get far enough in their advancement to require these badge. So, whats the point?

We have been spending a lot of time lately discussing how the mind of a boy works, or doesn't work (according to Mrs. Barry). Honestly, most of that discussion is more toward scouts before puberty. I believe the subjects of these badges are appropriate for scouts when they reach a maturity where the material is thought provoking. And, I believe thought provoking exercises are important in the Mission. But where we adults miss on the types of exercises (all type of exercises or activities ) that develop scouts to make ethical and moral choices is their maturity. Our challenge is provide a program that challenges every scout in the troop at their level of maturity and experience. It needs to be a challenge that requires effort from the scout so he will grow from the experience, but not take away the adventure from the heart of the scout. 

Just like I don't believe the average scout is mature enough to grow from the experience of leadership until puberty, I believe sit down studies of subjects aren't really a big motivation for scouts to attend scouting activities until puberty. The adult mind simply doesn't work the same for scouts 14 and older, which is the main reason adults loose their older scouts. No adult likes to be treated like a kid, and that is what most adult leaders do to their older scouts. The older scouts are adults with adult drives and reactions. Adults like mental challenges and stimulus. That doesn't mean they will like the these kinds of badges, but they will have the maturity to understand that the material has value and worth the time to learn, or experience. 

Barry

[walk in the woods]

30 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

Seems the consensus is to drop the non-active merit badges in favor of more outdoor/activity oriented merit badges.  I thought about it in terms of the mission of the BSA:

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

I don't see anything in the mission of the Boy Scouts of America or in the Scout Oath and Law about Scouts becoming better outdoorsmen.  Its all about making ethical and moral choices.  Its about, as the DRP puts it, becoming the best kind of citizen.

Its those non-active merit badges that seem to fit in much more with the mission that the active merit badges.  Just something to ponder, I think.

Well, I'll defer to the lawyers and English majors, but by my read the active part of the Mission statement is "by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."  That's the doing part, preparing "young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes" is the expected outcome part.  If our focus is on the process, i.e. installing the values, then that can be done with the Patrol and Outdoor methods very effectively without ever having a citizenship or family life MB while still achieving the outcomes we desire.  However, if our focus is on the outcome, i.e. making ethical and moral choices or hammering the values like preachers, then we get wrapped around the axle as to the best way to do that and the patrol/outdoor methods can suffer.

[Eagledad]

8 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Well, I'll defer to the lawyers and English majors, but by my read the active part of the Mission statement is "by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."  That's the doing part, preparing "young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes" is the expected outcome part.  If our focus is on the process, i.e. installing the values, then that can be done with the Patrol and Outdoor methods very effectively without ever having a citizenship or family life MB while still achieving the outcomes we desire.  However, if our focus is on the outcome, i.e. making ethical and moral choices or hammering the values like preachers, then we get wrapped around the axle as to the best way to do that and the patrol/outdoor methods can suffer.

We are given further instruction from the Aims and Methods. Aims are the scouts part, methods are the adults part. The challenge isn't making sure scout is reaching the mission goal, the challenge is providing a program where the scout has all the resources to reach the mission goal.

Barry

[Rick_in_CA]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

I wish more leaders would look at the mission "First", then build the program. Once in a blue moon, Calicoe and I agree.

Still, we need to remember the program is for the average boy and the average Boy Scout does't get far enough in their advancement to require these badge. So, whats the point?

We have been spending a lot of time lately discussing how the mind of a boy works, or doesn't work (according to Mrs. Barry). Honestly, most of that discussion is more toward scouts before puberty. I believe the subjects of these badges are appropriate for scouts when they reach a maturity where the material is thought provoking. And, I believe thought provoking exercises are important in the Mission. But where we adults miss on the types of exercises (all type of exercises or activities ) that develop scouts to make ethical and moral choices is their maturity. Our challenge is provide a program that challenges every scout in the troop at their level of maturity and experience. It needs to be a challenge that requires effort from the scout so he will grow from the experience, but not take away the adventure from the heart of the scout. 

Just like I don't believe the average scout is mature enough to grow from the experience of leadership until puberty, I believe sit down studies of subjects aren't really a big motivation for scouts to attend scouting activities until puberty. The adult mind simply doesn't work the same for scouts 14 and older, which is the main reason adults loose their older scouts. No adult likes to be treated like a kid, and that is what most adult leaders do to their older scouts. The older scouts are adults with adult drives and reactions. Adults like mental challenges and stimulus. That doesn't mean they will like the these kinds of badges, but they will have the maturity to understand that the material has value and worth the time to learn, or experience. 

Barry

I think you bring up an excellent point about scout maturity and merit badges. I sometimes wish some of the badges had age restrictions or prerequisites. Something to help postpone some of the badges until the scouts are mature enough to get the most out of them. But I am leery of age restrictions, as I am afraid we would get the merit badge equivalent of "must be 14 to use a wagon". I wonder if the UK scouts have it right to split the boy scouts into two age groups. What works for a 12 year old is going to be different than what works for a 16 year old.

[RememberSchiff]

There once was an age restriction of sorts, one had to be First Class to work on merit badges and only your next rank could be worked on. 

[WisconsinMomma]

I'm jumping in without reading the whole thing.

I like some of the bookish Eagle merit badges.  Communication is an important skill, so is personal finance.  I think Family life is very good.  If Scouting teaches Citizenship, I think a Citizenship merit badge is good, but maybe it could be condensed?  I don't know though,  Cit in the Nation was extremely thorough and would be great at helping a kid in school, and probably covers *more* than school does. And that is good.  We don't want to lose education in citizenship.

I think these life skills, like Cooking, are a big part of "adulting" that seems to be getting lost.  I like those merit badges.

Just have to mix that with some real fun and goofy stuff and keep it balanced.  

I do think troops should be separate gender and that summer camps should offer a girls week or a boys week, so that there are opportunities to be single gender.

41 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

There once was an age restriction of sorts, one had to be First Class to work on merit badges and only your next rank could be worked on. 

Some of the merit badges are more for younger scouts.  Sculpture is easy,, Leatherwork, there's something for everybody.   I wouldn't give more restriction.  I think that middle school scouts have more time on their hands than the high school kids who have jobs and college applications and honors classes and more intense sports, etc. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by WisconsinMomma

[WisconsinMomma]

I also think with boys, you don't know what they are absorbing.  Exposure is good. If they don't look like they are paying attention, they might still be paying attention, you know?   And it can take a lot of repetition for boys to get the hang of things.  

Edited June 26, 2018 by WisconsinMomma

[WisconsinMomma]

On 6/19/2018 at 6:33 PM, FireStone said:

I agree civics is lacking in this country, but is Scouting the best venue for teaching it? Seems like we're picking up the slack where schools should be doing a better job. 

Personally I'd be fine with seeing all Citizenship MBs gone. 

It's easier to work the scout program than to fix the schools.  

[RememberSchiff]

On 6/19/2018 at 7:33 PM, FireStone said:

I agree civics is lacking in this country, but is Scouting the best venue for teaching it? Seems like we're picking up the slack where schools should be doing a better job. 

Personally I'd be fine with seeing all Citizenship MBs gone. 

IMO, school is where civics should be taught, scouting is where it can be practiced. - responsibility, service.  

Remember when a single, thick merit badge pamphlet covered all citizenship merit badges?

My $0.02,

[desertrat77]

The Improved Scouting Program required scouts to earn MBs early.  I recall having to earn 1 MB for Tenderfoot, 2 for Second Class, and a total of 5 for First Class (two of which had to be First Aid and Citizenship in the Community).  Plus some skill awards.

While I agree that many schools aren't teaching much these days, I don't think the BSA should feel obligated to pick up the slack.  There is already too much time spent scribbling reports and listening to lectures while sitting on benches that would be better spent hiking, canoeing and swinging an axe.  Scouts don't sign up for homework.  Most want to camp and have fun with their friends.  Once they earn First Class and grow up a bit, those homework MBs might be of interest to them.  Or maybe not but they'll grit their teeth and earn them anyway.

Though it's been 40+ years, my memory of earning the three Citizenship MBs is still unvarnished by nostalgia or fondness.  The phrase "pure drudgery" is still apt.  Here is a rare bit of praise for the long-departed and not-missed skill awards:  the content of the Citizenship and Community Living skill awards was perfectly sufficient.   

Edited June 27, 2018 by desertrat77

[Eagledad]

5 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

While I agree that many schools aren't teaching much these days, I don't think the BSA should feel obligated to pick up the slack.  There is already too much time spent scribbling reports and listening to lectures while sitting on benches that would be better spent hiking, canoeing and swinging an axe.  Scouts don't sign up for homework.  Most want to camp and have fun with their friends.  Once they earn First Class and grow up a bit, those homework MBs might be of interest to them.  Or maybe not but they'll grit their teeth and earn them anyway.

In the 1980s, National set a goal of increasing the percentage number of Eagles, which at the time was around 3 percent. They made a number of changes that included New Scout Patrols and First Class in the First Year. I imagine that is still the motivation for home study type merit badges

 

10 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

TThough it's been 40+ years, my memory of earning the three Citizenship MBs is still unvarnished by nostalgia or fondness.  The phrase "pure drudgery" is still apt.  Here is a rare bit of praise for the long-departed and not-missed skill awards:  the content of the Citizenship and Community Living skill awards was perfectly sufficient.   

I imagine that your age was at least 14 years of age when you worked those badges. As I said earlier, these sit down types of advancement requirements are easier for older scouts to accept and digest. 

What makes this worse is because National is turning into a BSA into a more family program, the scouts will have less independence to choose how they want to advance because the parents will be more directly involved. 

As has been demonstrated for the last 28 years, National is out of touch.

Barry

[Jameson76]

7 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

As has been demonstrated for the last 28 years, National is out of touch.

 

I would posit that they were out of touch in 73 with BOYPOWER MANPOWER and the Improved Scouting Program...so I would move that timeline out to at least 45 years.  Though the uniform update in early 80's (Thanks Mr De Larenta) was a brief shining moment

[desertrat77]

6 hours ago, Eagledad said:

In the 1980s, National set a goal of increasing the percentage number of Eagles, which at the time was around 3 percent. They made a number of changes that included New Scout Patrols and First Class in the First Year. I imagine that is still the motivation for home study type merit badges

 

I imagine that your age was at least 14 years of age when you worked those badges. As I said earlier, these sit down types of advancement requirements are easier for older scouts to accept and digest. 

What makes this worse is because National is turning into a BSA into a more family program, the scouts will have less independence to choose how they want to advance because the parents will be more directly involved. 

As has been demonstrated for the last 28 years, National is out of touch.

Barry

Barry, good estimate, I was 13/14 during the Great Citizenship MB Completion Campaign!    You are correct, had I waited a year or two, I might have had a different viewpoint on the whole thing.  Still, I think @RememberSchiff 's point is valid, one big Citizenship MB would be more than enough. 

Regarding family scout/camping, I believe it can work given the right parameters.  I saw it in action about 10 years ago, in a small rural council in the Deep South.   After a 17 year hiatus from scouting, I volunteered at a spring camporee.  The troops were camped in a big field, and conducted their events further away in the woods.  Some parents and siblings camped nearby. 

I didn't see any helicoptering and very little mingling.  In fact, the families were quite content to just relax in their neck of the woods and let the scouts do their thing.  The only times everyone was together:  opening/closing flag ceremonies, closing campfire, and chapel.

I was doubtful at first, but later impressed as the weekend went on.  It was truly a community event.  Small siblings watching the flag being raised and lowered by the Boy Scouts.  Parents laughing at the old corny skits.  Sisters wearing their Girl Scout vest, saluting during the flag ceremonies.  There was a flag retirement ceremony at the closing campfire.  And there were a bunch of old flags.  Everyone, including the smallest kids, joined in to help.  I'm sure these experiences made an impression on those young children.

Edited June 28, 2018 by desertrat77

[walk in the woods]

Related info:http://intellectualtakeout.org/article/boys-are-growing-frustrated-living-feminized-society-and-thats-showing-their-friendships

and the referenced article http://chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/stevens/ct-life-stevens-sunday-boy-friendships-0520-story.html

Quote

Give him a chance to be a hero and an expert — two things boys love — in his own life story.

If possible, she said, we should give our sons the opportunity to be the older boy in a group. Hang out with cousins, neighbors, friends’ kids who are younger and smaller, and who look up to our little guys as role models — and give them reason to behave as such.

We should make sure, she added, our sons have plenty of loving, friendly men in their lives. If that’s dad, great. If it’s not, tap grandpa. An uncle. A coach. A barber.

“Surround them with people who celebrate their identity and their dignity and their worth and their beauty,” she said.