North Face to develop GS outdoor adventure program

[shortridge]

8 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

You need to get on-board with the expected offerings, the BSA program will not be "specifically for girls"...the BSA program will be the same for Boys and Girls and there will be NO CHANGES to the current program with the addition of girls to the program

The FAQ (15+ pages I might add) on Family Scouting states that and if it says it is so...it is so

“Specifically for girls” does not mean a completely different program with different activities and ranks and the like. It means a program in units just for girls, which is what they’ll have once Scouts BSA launches. For example, Venturing - which covers those topics - is not specifically for girls. Girl-only Scouts BSA troops will be “specifically for girls.”

I’m fully on board, Jameson. I expect that in another 5-10 years we’ll see complete coed Scouting, and I’m fully on board with that, too. It’s about darn time we join the rest of the world.

 

[qwazse]

@bearess, I was a little bit tongue (fingers?) in cheek. GS/USA's strength and simultaneous weakness is its segregation. On backpacking trips, I've had to break my venturers coming from GS troops from the habit of deferring to boys. In my case, this happens mostly during land navigation. They would literally cluster on opposite sides of the trail when they reached a crossing. That is the first habit that needs to be broken, because one group would have the right idea and the other the "2 extra miles" idea. And, if the first group cedes to the second, I would have no problem letting them walk out those extra miles. In other instances the girls would take point. E.g. cooking supper or doing dishes. The boys would play dumb, which I found that totally unacceptable. Most of the boys knew full well how to cook and the girls needed to firmly request their participation.

That said, the fact that the girls knew to take point and really dive in is a credit to their training. It just took venturing to let them know in deeds rather than words that they deserved a seat at the "boy's" table.

So, I don't think @Jameson76 is wrong. A sex-segregated Scouts USA has the potential to replicate GS\USA's foibles. As it stands, the only thing that BSA4G is offering different from GS/USA, is the required participation in outdoor activity for advancement. Where I disagree with him: I don't treat it as a foregone conclusion. There is potential for leaders of BSA4G units to deliver on the promise of scouting in a way that motivates traditional units to do the same.

[Jameson76]

26 minutes ago, qwazse said:

@bearess, I was a little bit tongue (fingers?) in cheek. GS/USA's strength and simultaneous weakness is its segregation. On backpacking trips, I've had to break my venturers coming from GS troops from the habit of deferring to boys. In my case, this happens mostly during land navigation. They would literally cluster on opposite sides of the trail when they reached a crossing. That is the first habit that needs to be broken, because one group would have the right idea and the other the "2 extra miles" idea. And, if the first group cedes to the second, I would have no problem letting them walk out those extra miles. In other instances the girls would take point. E.g. cooking supper or doing dishes. The boys would play dumb, which I found that totally unacceptable. Most of the boys knew full well how to cook and the girls needed to firmly request their participation.

That said, the fact that the girls knew to take point and really dive in is a credit to their training. It just took venturing to let them know in deeds rather than words that they deserved a seat at the "boy's" table.

So, I don't think @Jameson76 is wrong. A sex-segregated Scouts USA has the potential to replicate GS\USA's foibles. As it stands, the only thing that BSA4G is offering different from GS/USA, is the required participation in outdoor activity for advancement. Where I disagree with him: I don't treat it as a foregone conclusion. There is potential for leaders of BSA4G units to deliver on the promise of scouting in a way that motivates traditional units to do the same.

My intended poke at the current expectations may have been missed, yes there will be impact.  I hope it will it not end up a repeat of ISP in the 70's.

Listening to the CSE and Reading the FAQ this is the blanket statement - 

• Q: Will girls have to meet the same requirement to achieve Eagle Scout? 
• Yes. Young women will have the opportunity to earn the Eagle Scout rank by meeting the same criteria and achievements as young men.

To your point and to many who have made the point, I think this is a simplistic view to assume that things will not change.  Who can predict what the final "product" will look like.  If, for example, summer camps are not game planning 2019 and beyond they are behind the curve.  Will the merit badges that fill up now be the same as what the revised population of the Boy Scouts...sorry Scouts USA wants/seeks? 

There will likely be some push back and adjustment on some requirements.  One challenge may be some related to outdoor and camping.  Will new girl troops be able to offer enough outings and secure enough female adults to have these?  Our unit goes on 13 outdoor events in a year, will a new troop be able to quickly offer that depth?  Not saying they will not, but that could be an issue.  Even with seasoned troops that is a challenge sometimes, though more for attendance than cancelled outings.  If the hope (plan??) is for these multitude of new units that could tax resources.

 

[Hawkwin]

Let's please not turn this into another "girls in BSA" thread as this was posted in the Girl Scout forum and those of us with girl scouts can still celebrate what they are doing without it being a direct reflection on what BSA is doing.

[shortridge]

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

As it stands, the only thing that BSA4G is offering different from GS/USA, is the required participation in outdoor activity for advancement.

The other primary difference in my experience is the unit structure. GSUSA units are almost entirely dependent on one or two adult leaders. There is no CO, there is no unit committee. The unit focus can largely be whatever it wants to be. If the unit leader doesn’t like to camp regularly, the girls don’t camp or just attend summer camp.

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

The other primary difference in my experience is the unit structure. GSUSA units are almost entirely dependent on one or two adult leaders. There is no CO, there is no unit committee. The unit focus can largely be whatever it wants to be. If the unit leader doesn’t like to camp regularly, the girls don’t camp or just attend summer camp.

Flip that around, and we can say that a couple of GS/USA leaders who want the girls to camp regularly can get at least get the 15 girls in their charge out there and doing so. For them, programs like one North Face is offering can be a real boon.

[cocomax]

I am a registered adult (male) in a Girl Scout troop with 14 girls who all want to go camping.  I have gone to GSUSA outdoor training and qualify as a firstaider. The troop has been around for 10 months. I would love to take the girls camping, I have been in the BSA for a total of 15 years as a boy and adult leader.

None of the adult female leaders want to go camping.

The female leadership of the Girl Scout troop has decided that no males (including registered adult males, like myself) are allowed to go camping with the Girl Scout troop if they should ever decide to go camping.

The parents of the Girl Scouts now want to have the girls join the BSA and have the men take care of things and take the girls camping and hiking, "because men are really good at that sort of thing and do not mind getting dirty."  They just want the girls stuck into the existing Boy Scout Troop and make things co-ed.

I had to tell them that they needed to form a new all girl BSA Troop and on top of that we would need at least 1 adult female over the age of 21 that is willing to go camping and hiking for it to work. 

We still can not find any adult women willing to camp so far.  Not even simple car camping let alone hiking. 

14 girls and not a single women available to get a girls outdoor program going. . .   this brings it all to a grinding stop. . . sad.

The Boy Scout troop I am an adult member of can field at least 5  BSA registered adult men if needed for a trip and we only have 10 boys in the troop. 

  

    

[qwazse]

@cocomax, welcome to the dark side. I have 80 year old former GS moms who shake their heads at the sad state of affairs. No matter how you try to pull this off (GS/USA our BSA4G) you're gonna hit this wall with our generation of adults. (Okay, the rest of you can stop laughing. In spirit, I'm more post-modern nomad than baby boomer or gen-x.) Cracking the code is hard. Get these girls in a room and explain to them the problem, and tell them if they want this to happen they will need to start a search. Some suggestions:

• Grandmothers. Seriously. My co-advisor got her mom to come on a few GS campouts to make things work. Both of those ladies are saints.
• Veterans. Fire departments. Union halls. Get the word out to them. "Women with integrity to bring up the next generation."
• College outdoor clubs. APO fraternities. These kids might not have much time. The moms might have to pay cash to get the best young women from this lot to serve as an ASM.
• Camps and camping schools.
• Your council venturing officer's association.

 

[MikeS72]

Try contacting your Council summer camp director to see if any of the young ladies on staff this summer are from your area.  

We just got back from camp last Saturday, and had several excellent female staff members that our boys were very impressed by.

[MattR]

@cocomax, do you want this as a new thread?

You'll likely need a couple of women if they're not related to any of the girls.

[bearess]

4 hours ago, cocomax said:

 

The parents of the Girl Scouts now want to have the girls join the BSA and have the men take care of things and take the girls camping and hiking, "because men are really good at that sort of thing and do not mind getting dirty."  They just want the girls stuck into the existing Boy Scout Troop and make things co-ed.

I had to tell them that they needed to form a new all girl BSA Troop and on top of that we would need at least 1 adult female over the age of 21 that is willing to go camping and hiking for it to work. 

We still can not find any adult women willing to camp so far.  Not even simple car camping let alone hiking. 

14 girls and not a single women available to get a girls outdoor program going. . .   this brings it all to a grinding stop. . . sad.

The Boy Scout troop I am an adult member of can field at least 5  BSA registered adult men if needed for a trip and we only have 10 boys in the troop.

    

That’s so unfortunate.  It goes back to someone else’s point, that girls will defer to men/boys when it comes to outdoor stuff, even when they shouldn’t or don’t need to.  It is so ingrained.  I really do think that’s the benefit of a program like Girl Scouts—no, it doesn’t break girls of the habit of deferring to men.  But it does give them the confidence to work in breaking the habit!

My son’s Troop is doing a canoe trip next summer in the Boundary waters.  I know my limits—I’m a confident car camper.  I’m not a canoe camper.  I’m OK with that.  My ex husband is not even a confident car camper— I did all the tent pitching, camp cooking, packing, etc when we were together.  He’s taken our boys camping for one night— they got to the campground at 5:00, my son pitched the tent, they went out for pizza, went to bed and left the next morning, with a stop at McDonalds for breakfast!  But he is gong ho to go on this canoe trip!  I don’t think women suffer from such overconfidence!

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, bearess said:

My ex husband is not even a confident car camper— I did all the tent pitching, camp cooking, packing, etc when we were together.  He’s taken our boys camping for one night— they got to the campground at 5:00, my son pitched the tent, they went out for pizza, went to bed and left the next morning, with a stop at McDonalds for breakfast!  But he is gong ho to go on this canoe trip!  I don’t think women suffer from such overconfidence!

OH. HECK. NO!

He needs to get his butt out and practice, practice, practice. He will be a hindrance, and can cause major problems if he cannot pull his own weight. Been there. Done that. got hypothermia from it.

[MattR]

2 hours ago, bearess said:

That’s so unfortunate.  It goes back to someone else’s point, that girls will defer to men/boys when it comes to outdoor stuff, even when they shouldn’t or don’t need to.

Or maybe it's a generation of girls that never went outdoors when they were young and just don't like dirt. I know plenty of women my age that did a lot of camping and canoeing when they were younger but those that are 15 years younger didn't do nearly as much.

[qwazse]

10 hours ago, bearess said:

That’s so unfortunate.  It goes back to someone else’s point, that girls will defer to men/boys when it comes to outdoor stuff, even when they shouldn’t or don’t need to.  It is so ingrained.  I really do think that’s the benefit of a program like Girl Scouts—no, it doesn’t break girls of the habit of deferring to men.  But it does give them the confidence to work in breaking the habit!

My son’s Troop is doing a canoe trip next summer in the Boundary waters.  I know my limits—I’m a confident car camper.  I’m not a canoe camper.  I’m OK with that.  My ex husband is not even a confident car camper— I did all the tent pitching, camp cooking, packing, etc when we were together.  He’s taken our boys camping for one night— they got to the campground at 5:00, my son pitched the tent, they went out for pizza, went to bed and left the next morning, with a stop at McDonalds for breakfast!  But he is gong ho to go on this canoe trip!  I don’t think women suffer from such overconfidence!

I'm calling BS @bearess, I saw all kinds of girls coming into venturing, and GS background did not make a difference in who was deferential to men or boys and who was not. But after a few months, they all were able to speak their mind top others. That was actually one of my favorite things about venturers: young women who, while passing on a trail, would look you in the eye and say a bright "good morning."

The girls who didn't like the thought of backpacking through bear country, didn't go. They were still a welcome part of our crew! It was that simple. Same things for boys.

Most overconfident canoer I ever knew: a comittee member who joined our crew on a whitewater trip. The poor dear, she was not prepared for getting tossed into the maelstrom as often as we did! Most confident: a fourteen year old girl on the same trip who washed up like a drowned rat. I'm on the shore down from a chute with the both of them watching the rest of the rafts make it through (more or less) ... a look of terror on the mom on the right ... a "let's do that again" look on the girl on the left.

In scouting, we all are stretched. The youth get to see us flummoxed on multiple occasions. That's part of our gift to them.

[carebear3895]

Good for them. Looks like they are starting to realize that STEM is, IMO, a waste of time for an "outdoor character and leadership building organization"...

Ironically, BSA allowing girls in was probably the best thing to ever happen to GSUSA programming. I think the last few months are the first time I've ever seen them promote something outside of cookies.