Adults having membership revoked?

[Trail_on]

Question, If a Leaders re charter did not get completed by the Council. The deadline date of Jan 31 of the year is the leader still held to the Guide lines of BSA. Would they not just be a parent at that point?

There has been an event that has caused a leader to loose there membership. The information is regarding the  decision is very gray. 

If the adult is not a registered leader at that time then the actions that happened would not apply.

[RememberSchiff]

@Trail_on  welcome to scouter.com.

[MikeS72]

4 hours ago, Trail_on said:

There has been an event that has caused a leader to loose there membership. The information is regarding the  decision is very gray. 

If the adult is not a registered leader at that time then the actions that happened would not apply.

Revocation of membership may only be a formality if that membership had already expired, the end result is not.  Depending on what caused said revocation, it would really not make much difference whether the individual was registered or technically just a parent.  If severe enough, it would, in my opinion, preclude him/her from any contact with the unit; regardless of registration status.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

Revocation of membership may only be a formality if that membership had already expired, the end result is not.  Depending on what caused said revocation, it would really not make much difference whether the individual was registered or technically just a parent.  If severe enough, it would, in my opinion, preclude him/her from any contact with the unit; regardless of registration status.

I disagree. BSA can deny a persons membership application. It can also ban someone from BSA owned property. BSA cannot, however, dictate to the Chartered Organization who can/cannot have contact with the unit. That authority rests solely with the CO.

 

[David CO]

6 hours ago, Trail_on said:

If the adult is not a registered leader at that time then the actions that happened would not apply.

Yes, it may still apply. It would all depend on the nature and the severity of the offense.

Edited June 4, 2018 by David CO

[ParkMan]

 

 

7 hours ago, Trail_on said:

Question, If a Leaders re charter did not get completed by the Council. The deadline date of Jan 31 of the year is the leader still held to the Guide lines of BSA. Would they not just be a parent at that point?

There has been an event that has caused a leader to loose there membership. The information is regarding the  decision is very gray. 

If the adult is not a registered leader at that time then the actions that happened would not apply.

I've seen a removal occur once.  My experience is that it was very clear what the issue was and why.  Its an action of the council and national.  I'd think that if you are directly involved here as a party, the council would be open with you.

In our case, the membership status was irelevant.

[Eagle94-A1]

56 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

 I'd think that if you are directly involved here as a party, the council would be open with you.

If you are the individual  who was removed, yes council will tell you. IH and COR will only know via a letter, unit leaders will not know, and, believe it or not, the DE may not even know.

When I became a DE and moved into my district, we had a long time Scouter have his membership revoked. All I was told was that if he shows up to any Scouting event, unit, district, or council, I was to call the SE immediately, and be ready to call the police if so instructed. Nothing else was mentioned to me. When he went through BSA's appeals process and lost, he sued, and was temporarily reinstated by the judge until the court case was over. I was not informed about the court case nor that he was reinstated! (emphasis) When he shows up to RT in uniform, I followed the instructions given tot me: call the SE and prepare to call the police. It was when I called the SE that I was informed that he was reinstated and to do nothing else. Still nothing was told to me why this long-time, DAM and SB Scouter who served on district and council levels was removed. All I know for sure was what was printed in the local paper about the course case and why he lost. To this day, I do not know anything else for sure, although there was a lot of rumors and speculation on the matter.

On a side note, I am still persona non grata with that unit and CO because I was the DE when he lost the case. This despite the fact that I had nothing to do with it, was not informed of anything except what I stated above, nor was I involved with the court case.

[CalicoPenn]

8 hours ago, Trail_on said:

Question, If a Leaders re charter did not get completed by the Council. The deadline date of Jan 31 of the year is the leader still held to the Guide lines of BSA. Would they not just be a parent at that point?

There has been an event that has caused a leader to loose there membership. The information is regarding the  decision is very gray. 

If the adult is not a registered leader at that time then the actions that happened would not apply.

There is something that is a bit unclear.  Was this leader on the unit's recharter application and the Council struck them from the re-charter or did this leader just not re-apply? 

It's just a question of curiosity though, as it's a bit of a moot point.

Sometimes, National will "revoke the membership" of former, non-registered Scouters so that there is both an official notification to the former Scouter that they are no longer allowed to be a leader, and a notation in the records so that  a "persona non-grata" cannot re-register in a different council - and that may be the case here. 

In addition, if a background check reveals issues with someone who is a former leader or a person who has never been a leader that would have resulted in their removal from Scouting, they could be barred from Scouting - even if the event took place when they were not registered.

Welcome to the forum.

[NJCubScouter]

Trail_on, welcome to the forum.

I think we need a clearer time-line and some details of what happened here before people can give an opinion that is really relevant to the situation you are describing.  If you are asking whether something that happened while a person was not a registered leader can be used as a reason for denying them registration (or re-registration) as a leader, the answer is yes (as others have said.)

[Trail_on]

15 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If you are the individual  who was removed, yes council will tell you. IH and COR will only know via a letter, unit leaders will not know, and, believe it or not, the DE may not even know.

When I became a DE and moved into my district, we had a long time Scouter have his membership revoked. All I was told was that if he shows up to any Scouting event, unit, district, or council, I was to call the SE immediately, and be ready to call the police if so instructed. Nothing else was mentioned to me. When he went through BSA's appeals process and lost, he sued, and was temporarily reinstated by the judge until the court case was over. I was not informed about the court case nor that he was reinstated! (emphasis) When he shows up to RT in uniform, I followed the instructions given tot me: call the SE and prepare to call the police. It was when I called the SE that I was informed that he was reinstated and to do nothing else. Still nothing was told to me why this long-time, DAM and SB Scouter who served on district and council levels was removed. All I know for sure was what was printed in the local paper about the course case and why he lost. To this day, I do not know anything else for sure, although there was a lot of rumors and speculation on the matter.

On a side note, I am still persona non grata with that unit and CO because I was the DE when he lost the case. This despite the fact that I had nothing to do with it, was not informed of anything except what I stated above, nor was I involved with the court case.

With out going in to a lot of details the reasons given don’t add up to the  decision made. 

If a leader transported a scouts to a event or meeting in the vehicle was there own boys that are registered scouts would this be a violation.

Every thing has been proven that the Leader did not violate the one on one or two deep. There was a part about traveling in a convoy but no information was or has been given to state that convoy is a actual thing.

There was a scout that was a younger rank but not that would require a  parents to be with them at all times . The Guide to safe Scouting states it’s not recommended to take younger boys to certain things but, doesn’t state that it can’t be done. 

So on these two items that is what caused the leader to be revoked. 

If that is a true reason there will be more leaders getting revoked. This isn’t anything that hasnt happen or won’t happen again.

[Trail_on]

15 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

There is something that is a bit unclear.  Was this leader on the unit's recharter application and the Council struck them from the re-charter or did this leader just not re-apply? 

It's just a question of curiosity though, as it's a bit of a moot point.

Sometimes, National will "revoke the membership" of former, non-registered Scouters so that there is both an official notification to the former Scouter that they are no longer allowed to be a leader, and a notation in the records so that  a "persona non-grata" cannot re-register in a different council - and that may be the case here. 

In addition, if a background check reveals issues with someone who is a former leader or a person who has never been a leader that would have resulted in their removal from Scouting, they could be barred from Scouting - even if the event took place when they were not registered.

Welcome to the forum.

The leader was on the re charter paperwork and application along with all fees paid. To the understanding the Council had misplaced a paper and got backed up.  Discovering this had happened 4 months after it should have been filed. 

This meaning at the time the event took place the Leader was not registered and actually the actions were no different that a parent that doesn’t  fall under the Guide lines as Leaders do. 

[Trail_on]

On 6/4/2018 at 5:13 AM, RememberSchiff said:

@Trail_on  welcome to scouter.com.

Thank you.. I’m glad to finally find a place we’re Scouters can interact and get information.

[qwazse]

The registration status of a leader was immaterial. In fact it could make things worse. Typically, scouters with lapsed registration are to cease all scouting activities until it is restored.

So, for example, if he signed in as a registered leader for the event when he was not on the roster, it's a problem. If he then ignored G2SS age recommendations thereby putting an unprepared scout at risk, that's a bigger problem. If this is the way you all do business, that's even a bigger problem.

Given the disconcerting revisions to G2SS, some of us patrol-method folks who rely on 18 y.o. ASMs are about to have tremendous problems.

Edited June 5, 2018 by qwazse

[ParkMan]

10 hours ago, Trail_on said:

With out going in to a lot of details the reasons given don’t add up to the  decision made. 

If a leader transported a scouts to a event or meeting in the vehicle was there own boys that are registered scouts would this be a violation.

Every thing has been proven that the Leader did not violate the one on one or two deep. There was a part about traveling in a convoy but no information was or has been given to state that convoy is a actual thing.

There was a scout that was a younger rank but not that would require a  parents to be with them at all times . The Guide to safe Scouting states it’s not recommended to take younger boys to certain things but, doesn’t state that it can’t be done. 

So on these two items that is what caused the leader to be revoked. 

If that is a true reason there will be more leaders getting revoked. This isn’t anything that hasnt happen or won’t happen again.

Just to confirm I read this right.  You're observation is that: A leader had his membership in the BSA revoked by national because he drove his own son and another scout to an event.

Do I read that correctly?

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by ParkMan
clarified sentence

[Trail_on]

13 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Just to confirm I read this right.  You're observation is that: A leader had his membership in the BSA revoked by national because he drove his own son and another scout to an event.

Do I read that correctly?

 

Yes! You did read this right those were the reasons given for there actions.  Also the other Scout was a bear rank and taken to the event. 

Knowing that it’s at times not a good idea to take younger scouts to events. It’s only a recommendation not a rule. 

The problem is National seems to not be willing to relook at this they state it’s final unless new information is provided. They blurred out there own rules to react to the Council requests Witch the Leader was able to back up all of his part in the event. The problem know is they would have to hold up to there ruling. The actions of this leader are done every month with other leaders. 

Picking scouts up for a meeting or even taking them home. Taking them to and from events.