National Meeting: Affirmation of DRP

[Eagledad]

And it begins, little by little the principled foundation of the program gets diluted until the values of character are meaningless. 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

18 hours ago, Rick_in_CA said:

For clarity, here is the complete DRP from the BSA Charter and Bylaws (Article IX, Section 1):

Interestingly, the DRP does not say anything about kicking out Scouts who do not believe in God or some other higher power.  I don't think it is even implied.  (For adult leaders, it is clearly stated that only persons who are "willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles" are qualified to be leaders.   I wonder what percentage of adult leaders don't actually agree with some portion of the DRP.)

[SSScout]

First...   How do you create a sub forum again?   Name it " Faith and Chaplaincy"   and move THIS discussion there.   Where are you, Merlin? 

Second.....    Yep, been there, done that.   Many 's the time I've had to disabuse someone of the idea that the BSA (or Scouting in general) is a "Christian"  organization.  Religious organization, yes.  Particularly Christian, no. Are our "values"  religiously based?  I would posit that the SPromise and SLaw  may have their origins in faith,  and even be inspired of faith, but Baden Powell had to argue that the Church of England could not claim the Scouting movement as their own, much as they tried.  

Third....   The BSA's attitude toward religion/faith has always seemed to be more insular than other Scout associations.   France has, what, three or four Scout associations, defined by variations of Catholicism.  Some SA's have broadened their  definitions.  Some do not have a mention of "Reverence" or anything similar in their SLaw.  Just sayin' .

Fourth....   Personally, I think the encouragement of a Scout's spiritual acknowledgement and growth is a good thing.  When I served as a Chaplain at the Jamboree, I enjoyed listening to a Scout  (more than one Scout !) speak about his "not being sure about this God thing."   Let me explore my reasons too.  

Fifth....   Back when William Penn was arrested and thrown in gaol for his new found faith , he spent a lot of his time writing a book.  From "Some Fruits of Solitude"  : 

""519. The Humble, Meek, Merciful, Just,  Pious and Devout Souls, are everywhere of one Religion; and when Death has taken off the Mask, they will know one another, tho' the divers Liveries they wear here make them Strangers. ""

Sixth....   Yeah, I also thought the Resolution was poorly worded.  

See you on the trail. 

[NJCubScouter]

9 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Religious organization, yes.

The BSA is not a religious organization.  A religious organization has a specific creed relating to God, the Supreme Being, etc.  The BSA does not have that.

[SSScout]

NJC:   The only way to describe the BSA is as a "religious organization', and not a 'religion' (regardless of my good wife's description of my attitude towrd Scouting !). 

We have no specific faith, but we promote the idea of religion. That makes us a "religious organization",  similar to the National Council of Churches, or the National Prayer Breakfast, or (locally) the Greater Olney Interfaith Ministerium.   

No specific view of a Supreme being, but an acceptance of the idea  of many ways to view/worship/pray/reverence/acknowledge that Supreme being.  Is that a better explanation? 

[Eagledad]

40 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Interestingly, the DRP does not say anything about kicking out Scouts who do not believe in God or some other higher power.  I don't think it is even implied.  (For adult leaders, it is clearly stated that only persons who are "willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles" are qualified to be leaders.   I wonder what percentage of adult leaders don't actually agree with some portion of the DRP.)

You don't see it? The DRP is directed at role models. Interesting to me is that I think you and I had this same discussion a few years ago on gay adult leaders. I have no problem with youth struggling to find themselves during a very complex time of their life. Scouting might even help them find themselves. But the adult role models theoretically know who they.

Barry

[MattR]

12 minutes ago, SSScout said:

""519. The Humble, Meek, Merciful, Just,  Pious and Devout Souls, are everywhere of one Religion; and when Death has taken off the Mask, they will know one another, tho' the divers Liveries they wear here make them Strangers. ""

And the above continues with ... This world is a form; our bodies are forms; and no visible acts of devotion can be without forms. But yet the less form in religion the better, since God is a Spirit; for the more mental our worship, the more adequate to the nature of God; the more silent, the more suitable to the language of a Spirit.

Please explain. I can figure out something for most of it but the term "of one religion" is stumping me. Could one mean any, or a particular one? Of course, I could have the whole thing wrong.

One thing great about doing this from passages originally written in Hebrew is that the translations are always a guess. So in the case of one religion it could also be one's religion and completely change the meaning.

 

[NJCubScouter]

56 minutes ago, SSScout said:

We have no specific faith, but we promote the idea of religion. That makes us a "religious organization",  similar to the National Council of Churches, or the National Prayer Breakfast, or (locally) the Greater Olney Interfaith Ministerium.

Let's assume the National Council of Churches is a religious organization.  (I'm not really familiar with it so I will take your word for it.)  Is the National Conference of Christians and Jews a religious organization?  The name suggests it is an organization of people who express a faith, but it is not the same faith.  To me it does not meet the definition of a religious organization, for much the same reason as the BSA doesn't.   

[Rick_in_CA]

3 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Let's assume the National Council of Churches is a religious organization.  (I'm not really familiar with it so I will take your word for it.)  Is the National Conference of Christians and Jews a religious organization?  The name suggests it is an organization of people who express a faith, but it is not the same faith.  To me it does not meet the definition of a religious organization, for much the same reason as the BSA doesn't.   

You might be correct, but didn't the BSA tell the Supreme Court that it was? That was part of the reason the BSA jettisoned their two largest groups of charter organizations: public schools and the US military (because government entities can't own and operate discriminatory religious groups).

[NJCubScouter]

11 minutes ago, Rick_in_CA said:

You might be correct, but didn't the BSA tell the Supreme Court that it was? That was part of the reason the BSA jettisoned their two largest groups of charter organizations: public schools and the US military (because government entities can't own and operate discriminatory religious groups).

Was that in the Dale case?  Regardless of whether it was that case or a different one... I will try to put this gently... what the BSA's attorneys evidently told the Supreme Court in the Dale case - as reflected in the majority opinion, which I have read several times - does not serve as what I would call a role model for trustworthiness.  So it wouldn't surprise me if they said that too.

It was my understanding that the BSA parted ways with both public schools and the military as CO's not necessarily because it was a religious organization that was discriminating, but because it was was an organization that was discriminating on the basis of religion.  (The Supreme Court has stated that discrimination against atheists is discrimination on the basis of religion.)  A public school or military unit being a CO meant that the government was discriminating on the basis of religion.  I could be wrong, but that was my understanding. 

[Rick_in_CA]

2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Was that in the Dale case?  Regardless of whether it was that case or a different one... I will try to put this gently... what the BSA's attorneys evidently told the Supreme Court in the Dale case - as reflected in the majority opinion, which I have read several times - does not serve as what I would call a role model for trustworthiness.  So it wouldn't surprise me if they said that too.

I think that was the Dale case, but I'm not sure. It's been a while.

2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

It was my understanding that the BSA parted ways with both public schools and the military as CO's not necessarily because it was a religious organization that was discriminating, but because it was was an organization that was discriminating on the basis of religion.  (The Supreme Court has stated that discrimination against atheists is discrimination on the basis of religion.)  A public school or military unit being a CO meant that the government was discriminating on the basis of religion.  I could be wrong, but that was my understanding. 

I think you have expressed what I was trying to say, but with more clarity.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

17 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Was that in the Dale case?  Regardless of whether it was that case or a different one... I will try to put this gently... what the BSA's attorneys evidently told the Supreme Court in the Dale case - as reflected in the majority opinion, which I have read several times - does not serve as what I would call a role model for trustworthiness.  So it wouldn't surprise me if they said that too.

It was my understanding that the BSA parted ways with both public schools and the military as CO's not necessarily because it was a religious organization that was discriminating, but because it was was an organization that was discriminating on the basis of religion.  (The Supreme Court has stated that discrimination against atheists is discrimination on the basis of religion.)  A public school or military unit being a CO meant that the government was discriminating on the basis of religion.  I could be wrong, but that was my understanding. 

The BSA has said in various court cases that they are a religious organization, but they didn't use that wording in Dale -- that was pretty much just whether the BSA was a private club or a public accommodation (which by itself would probably cut them off of public school chartering, since I doubt public schools could own & operate a private club).

And the BSA didn't part with public schools and the military until the ACLU threatened to sue, which was 5 years after Dale.  And yes, that was totally due to the BSA's discrimination against atheists.

[SSScout]

Matt R:   Thank you for looking up Penn's work.   The whole book is very thought provoking, yes?   

As to your wonderment, you are not alone.   In the religious category of "Christian",   would you like to begin the sub group list?    The how and why they are so divided?   Would a Catholic admit a Methodist is still a "Christian"?    Our Jewish compadres have many similar groupings.   I know Jewish Scouters who will not set foot in a Social Hall built into a church under their sanctuary, others who see no problem with that but would not participate in a Interfaith Service in a Baptist church with other faiths.   And there are at least four (six?  Seven?)  titled subgroups of Islam.  Hindu?  Buddhist?     Penn's revelation is that all these folks often live very similar lives in their demonstration of adherance to their faith, tho  their "official"  declarations may be very different.   "The "golden rule"  can be found in just about every defined faith in one form or another.  

The religion/spiritual faith  shown by the actions in one's life  is not necessarily the one labeled in their House of Worship, altho we will honor that division.  The actions in one's life better demonstrates and defines one's faith.    Handle snakes and vipers as a sign of ones faith?  Ramadan?  Celebacy?  (Ain't no more Shakers, there's a reason for that).  Why hatred and lust for gold and power are  NOT  values propounded by any faith I am aware of (perhaps save Nichiren Buddhism) is significant.   "Radical Islam" not withstanding,  there have also been "Radical"  other faiths thruout history.  Sikhs versus Hindu versus Christian versus Coptic versus Muslim versus Buddhist versus ….    The Druz  and Sunni and Shia and Amadhaya (hope I remember the spelling) and whoa the rest of our Muslim friend's  divisions and their internecine rivalries are typical.  

Penn's point is that WE may think we have the correct belief system, but WE will not know for sure until all our "forms"  are removed, ultimately , by death.  

Oh, and Hey to you Merlyn ! 

And where is that Sub Forum on Faith and Chaplaincy????  

See you on the trail. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by SSScout

[NJCubScouter]

17 minutes ago, SSScout said:

And where is that Sub Forum on Faith and Chaplaincy????  

It's right here.  In spirit.  So to speak.

[NJCubScouter]

It is now clear to me that the BSA has said that it is a religious organization, and it has also said that it is NOT a religious organization, depending on the legal situation in which they found themselves.  Check this out:  http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/01/16/is-boy-scouts-america-religious-organization.html

Normally I would not be quoting from Fox News nor would I be quoting Bill O'Reilly, but I have no reason to doubt that the words quoted here were actually said.  This demonstrates that the BSA has been inconsistent on this question.  It is especially amusing to see the BSA attorney try to dance around the issue, but it eventually becomes clear that he does not think the term "religious organization" should be used for the BSA - even though the BSA has sometimes used the term for itself.

For me, I agree with the BSA on the days when it says it is not a religious organization.   

Edited June 13, 2018 by NJCubScouter