National Meeting: Affirmation of DRP

[David CO]

11 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I don’t understand, duty to god is our values. How is that redundant?

Barry

I agree. We say the Lord's Prayer every week at mass. Is that redundant? Maybe so. But religion isn't supposed to be a "one and done" type of activity. It's a 24/7 thing. 

[walk in the woods]

15 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Individual units have always had the freedom to restrict membership for both scouts and scouters. 

That doesn't answer the question.

[David CO]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:53 AM, DuctTape said:

I still don't understand why the need for a DRP. We don't have a DCP (Declaration of Citizenship Principles) and the Oath also states Duty to Country. 

Sure we do. It's called the Pledge of Allegiance. We say it at every scout meeting.

[Pale Horse]

51 minutes ago, David CO said:

Sure we do. It's called the Pledge of Allegiance. We say it at every scout meeting.

Yep, and we can kick them out if they don't recite it or are admitted communists!

[JoeBob]

1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:

we can kick them out if they don't recite it or are admitted communists!

In our troop we nickname them 'Will' and send them down range for archery and rifle.

 

"Ready on the firing line?  Fire at Will!"

[NJCubScouter]

I think this resolution leaves out some things that are important to a correct understanding of what the BSA's religion policy actually is, "on the ground."  What I am about to say is "old hat" to most of those who read this forum, but unfortunately the vast majority of unit Scouters do not read this forum or any other Internet Scouting forum, to say nothing of Scouts and their non-leader parents, and perhaps more importantly, prospective Scouts and their non-leader parents.

Examples:  1, It mentions "Duty to God" a lot, but it doesn't mention that the BSA does not define "Duty to God."  The BSA does say that in other places, but not here.  The BSA allows the member to define "Duty to God."  It would have been a good idea to mention that.

2, To me, the section quoted from the DRP seems to imply that one must be a member of an organized religion in order to do one's Duty to God.  That is not the case, and the DRP specifically says it is not the case, but they did not quote that part.  They do say that the BSA is "absolutely nonsectarian in its view of religious training," but I don't think that covers it.  The fact that you can be a non-member of any organized religion also implies that there may not be any "religious training," at least not outside the home.

3, If I did not know better, I might also get the impression that the BSA requires that you believe in the deity commonly known as "God," the monotheistic, anthropomorphic deity described in various versions of the Bible.  That is not the case either.  In practice, based on less "official" statements from the BSA over the years, the BSA requires one that one believe in a "higher power," and it does not define what that is.  It is clear that it does include beliefs in multiple deities (i.e. Hinduism, Wicca and, I believe, some Native American faiths), and it also includes beliefs in amorphous, non-anthropomorphic deities that may have done little more than create the Universe and observe the results (i.e. deism.)  I am not even going to get into Buddhism (see any one of a few dozen discussions in this forum over 15+ years about whether Buddhism fits into the BSA's "belief" requirement), and I also am not going to get into a BSA spokesman's long-ago comment about rocks and trees in the backyard, partly because I do not want to cause an unhealthy spike in Barry's blood pressure.

4, Again, if I did not know any better, I might think the "Duty to God" necessarily includes worship.  The part quoted from the DRP about "grateful acknowledgement of His favors and blessings" implies just that.  I think the bit quoted about "religious training" does as well.  For most people, their religious belief does involve worship, but that is not required by the BSA.  If you believe in a "higher power" that does not require worship, that's ok with the BSA - meaning that, at the very least, they are not going to kick you out.

I do want to acknowledge one thing that I think is good in the resolution, which is the quotation from the definition of "Reverent" about respect for the beliefs of others.  However, I don't think that makes up for the incorrect impressions that might be left by the rest of the resolution.  To me, it sets a "tone" that is less "inclusive," belief-in-a-higher-power-wise, than the BSA actually is.

[Rick_in_CA]

For clarity, here is the complete DRP from the BSA Charter and Bylaws (Article IX, Section 1):

Quote

Declaration of Religious Principle
Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.” The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.
Activities
Clause 2. The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading, “Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.”
Freedom
Clause 3. In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.
Leaders
Clause 4. Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.
Clause 5. Other major policies are set forth in article IX of the Rules and Regulations.

As can be seen, it has a rather Judaeo-Christian slant to things (which is not surprising as James West came over from the YMCA and it was 1910). The DRP is self contradictory. You can't be "absolutely nonsectarian" and then demand that members show "recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings". Which is why I believe that line is left off of the excerpt on the membership application.

Which is another thing, you shouldn't require members to have to agree with a declaration, then basically hide it from them.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Rick_in_CA

[skeptic]

How about we simply ask all members to vouch that they are not the center of the universe and that "something" greater and better than themselves may exist, whether they call it God, god, or something?  I am sure that would still find someone that thinks it is treading on their rights or personal space.  How broad do we have to go before we might reach "almost" consensus?  Obviously, total agreement is beyond our small capabilities.

[qwazse]

8 minutes ago, Rick_in_CA said:

For clarity, here is the complete DRP from the BSA Charter and Bylaws (Article IX, Section 1):

As can be seen, it has a rather Judaeo-Christian slant to things (which is not surprising as James West came over from the YMCA and it was 1910). The DRP is self contradictory. You can't be "absolutely nonsectarian" and then demand that members show "recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings". Which is why I believe that line is left off of the excerpt on the membership application.

Which is another thing, you shouldn't require members to have to agree with a declaration, then basically hide it from them.

I'm sorry, Rick, but I know a lot of Jews, Muslims, and Christians who would not see themselves in that language. Not now. Not a century ago. The folks who left for Trail Life made that quite clear.

[CalicoPenn]

54 minutes ago, Rick_in_CA said:

 

As can be seen, it has a rather Judaeo-Christian slant to things (which is not surprising as James West came over from the YMCA and it was 1910).

Just as an aside - the DRP was created in the first decade of the BSA (which is why it's in the Bylaws and not the Charter) and it appears that James West was a primary reason for it - but not in the way that the above implies.  The DRP was created to assuage the Catholic Church which was worried that because the BSA was closely tied to the YMCA at the start that the BSA would become a Protestant organization under James West and not be open to Catholics, not because James West wanted it.

Another aside, since it was mentioned - the BSA stated back in 1920 that Buddhism was compatible with the BSA and the DRP so hopefully we can put that one to rest.

[NJCubScouter]

48 minutes ago, skeptic said:

How about we simply ask all members to vouch that they are not the center of the universe and that "something" greater and better than themselves may exist, whether they call it God, god, or something?

You want teenagers to declare that they are not the center of the Universe?  Good luck with that. 

[Rick_in_CA]

8 hours ago, qwazse said:

I'm sorry, Rick, but I know a lot of Jews, Muslims, and Christians who would not see themselves in that language. Not now. Not a century ago. The folks who left for Trail Life made that quite clear.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Which language are you referring too?

I know several scouters (some current, some past) that when looking at the DRP found themselves unable to support it because of their religious beliefs. One of which was a Protestant minister (it was the "grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings" part - and I still don't understand his objection even though he tried to explain it to me. I see nothing in the DRP that isn't compatible with Protestant theology. But I'm not a theologian. Anyone here have a clue?). Another was a Jainist that after reading the compete DRP, resigned as a den leader because the DRP was incompatible with his faith (I met him at a Scout-O-Rama several years ago. He was no longer a registered leader, but still volunteered with his pack as a parent.). I have met a few others that have said the DRP was a problem with their faith. I admit that I have a problem with the implication in the DRP that a non-believer can't really be a good citizen - my faith tells me otherwise.

So much for "absolutely nonsectarian".

[Rick_in_CA]

8 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

Just as an aside - the DRP was created in the first decade of the BSA (which is why it's in the Bylaws and not the Charter) and it appears that James West was a primary reason for it - but not in the way that the above implies.  The DRP was created to assuage the Catholic Church which was worried that because the BSA was closely tied to the YMCA at the start that the BSA would become a Protestant organization under James West and not be open to Catholics, not because James West wanted it.

Another aside, since it was mentioned - the BSA stated back in 1920 that Buddhism was compatible with the BSA and the DRP so hopefully we can put that one to rest.

That would make sense. Learn something new every day!

As for Buddhist, you are correct that the BSA does say they are welcome, but that doesn't change the fact that I have met Buddhist that said that the DRP wasn't compatible with their faith (since Buddhists don't have a creator God, how can they recognize him as the leading power in the universe?). No matter what the BSA says, it's a problem for many.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Rick_in_CA

[ParkMan]

The history on its creation is interesting.  Leads me to think it's no longer needed.  It could be replaced by a simpler statement that simply says we believe it is important to have a belief in a higher power.  While I now understand it's historical context - I don't see the value in continuing to include such descriptive language.

[WisconsinMomma]

I just want to say,   Amen! 

I think that it is important for young Scouts to realize there is more to the world than themselves and that there is a responsibility to a higher power and to the community.  I also find the practice of communal prayer and reflection important, especially in a society that says, no it's all about you all the time.

Edited June 12, 2018 by WisconsinMomma