Arrow of Light Scouts Crossing Over

[Terasec]

25 minutes ago, SlowDerbyRacer said:

I agree the new program is light but argue that that's not the reason scouts are joining troops unprepared.  The Scouting Adventure requirement for AoL is virtually identical to the Scout rank in Boy Scouts.  If a scout earns AoL and still joins Boy Scouts unprepared, I put that on the cub leaders for passing along a kid who didn't really meet the AoL requirements as opposed to blaming the thinner rank requirements.  To earn the AoL rank the scout must still "know how to function as a Patrol and can't recite the Scout Oath, Scout Law, and outdoor code properly."

 

my gripe with AOL requirements and cub scouting in general is a cub can go through 5 yrs of cubs and obtain AOL without ever going camping

at some point overnight camping should have been a requirement to earn such badge,

 

[Jameson76]

1 minute ago, Terasec said:

at some point overnight camping should have been a requirement to earn such badge,

But but...it's dark and scary out there, and little Timmy has a lot to do, and the cell phone reception is weak, and toilets are scarce, and there was soccer.....

[SlowDerbyRacer]

2 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

Well then it's important for you to know that I AM in an LDS pack, and that's how we do things - standard LDS policy is that boys advance by age, so from 10 to 11 they are Webelos Scouts. The BSA has always been very accomodating to us in that regard; it fits how we run our children's programs, and the BSA has long granted us the right to operate our program in that way. And I never tamper with advancement criteria; if anything I am known for being determinedly orthodox in my expectations. So I would be happy to know what other things "concern" you, as I am confident that I run my program as close to policy as it can possibly be run. But do share if you have questions. 

Nope, you're good.  That's why I made the LDS carve out in my original comment.

[The Latin Scot]

41 minutes ago, SlowDerbyRacer said:

I agree the new program is light but argue that that's not the reason scouts are joining troops unprepared.  The Scouting Adventure requirement for AoL is virtually identical to the Scout rank in Boy Scouts.  If a scout earns AoL and still joins Boy Scouts unprepared, I put that on the cub leaders for passing along a kid who didn't really meet the AoL requirements as opposed to blaming the thinner rank requirements.  To earn the AoL rank the scout must still "know how to function as a Patrol and can't recite the Scout Oath, Scout Law, and outdoor code properly."

This is 100% right. As a Webelos leader, it's on me to make sure boys are totally prepared for what they are going to encounter in the Boy Scout program. If they haven't earned the rank of Scout within a few weeks of moving on, I can only assume I failed to prepare them somehow. Whenever my boys get close to turning 11, I spend the last few weeks with them preparing for the Scout rank by reviewing the Scouting Adventure adventure and making sure they are comfortable with the requirements. We also visit the 11 year-old patrol frequently so that the boys are familiar with how their meetings are run. 

Our den has a "patrol" name, flag, patch and shout, and our monthly denner has a number of supervised duties to help the boys gain leadership experience. The whole POINT of Webelos is preparing boys to get a head start with their Boy Scout experience!

2 minutes ago, SlowDerbyRacer said:

Nope, you're good.  That's why I made the LDS carve out in my original comment.

Oh good! Because I really like what you have been saying about Webelos programs, as you can see. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by The Latin Scot

[SlowDerbyRacer]

5 minutes ago, Terasec said:

my gripe with AOL requirements and cub scouting in general is a cub can go through 5 yrs of cubs and obtain AOL without ever going camping

at some point overnight camping should have been a requirement to earn such badge,

 

Yep.  I agree with you.  I suspect the change was made to not lock out urban kids or others who may not have access to camping for a variety of reasons.  If they are going to keep the ranks stripped of camping, maybe there are other ways to work in camping.  Perhaps a Camping Chip, much like a the Whittling Chip?

[The Latin Scot]

A lot of it is for our LDS packs as well. We don't endorse overnight camping in the Cub Scout programs, so making it required would have meant that no LDS children could have advanced. Having an alternative was very important to us, so I imagine that's one reason it isn't necessary in the program requirements. But hey, maybe after we leave next year they can make it a requirement after all!

[SlowDerbyRacer]

3 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

This is 100% right. As a Webelos leader, it's on me to make sure boys are totally prepared for what they are going to encounter in the Boy Scout program. If they haven't earned the rank of Scout within a few weeks of moving on, I can only assume I failed to prepare them somehow. Whenever my boys get close to turning 11, I spend the last few weeks with them preparing for the Scout rank by reviewing the Scouting Adventure adventure and making sure they are comfortable with the requirements. We also visit the 11 year-old patrol frequently so that the boys are familiar with how their meetings are run. 

Our den has a "patrol" name, flag, patch and shout, and our monthly denner has a number of supervised duties to help the boys gain leadership experience. The whole POINT of Webelos is preparing boys to get a head start with their Boy Scout experience!

Oh good! Because I really like what you have been saying about Webelos programs, as evident in my previous post above. 

Yep, it appears you and I see things along the same lines and operate similarly, CO differences aside. 

I'll also say I think there is an unintended benefit of the lighter Webelos/AoL requirements.  Because there is less to do, and less of of a time crunch, more time can be spent on certain things.  For example, we are implementing the patrol method and are really trying to let the boys take ownership of it.  And because of the lighter schedule we can allow them to stumble on their own as they find their way.  There's no rush to get something done so we can move on.  It's tough at times to sit back and watch them trip over themselves and seemingly spin their wheels, but they still impress more than they disappoint.  

[Terasec]

Just now, SlowDerbyRacer said:

Yep.  I agree with you.  I suspect the change was made to not lock out urban kids or others who may not have access to camping for a variety of reasons.  If they are going to keep the ranks stripped of camping, maybe there are other ways to work in camping.  Perhaps a Camping Chip, much like a the Whittling Chip?

I am part of an urban pack(nyc)

even in nyc we have ample opportunities to camp,

18 kids in our rank, 5 camp regularly, +10  have not camped yet,

first year we had 4 camping trips, second year we upped it to 6 trips, 

we also rent cabins on most trips to try to entice more to camp,

we coordinate and provide rides for those who don't drive, have plenty of gear to borrow, 

lack of opportunity is not a reason why so many don't camp,

 

[Terasec]

3 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

A lot of it is for our LDS packs as well. We don't endorse overnight camping in the Cub Scout programs, so making it required would have meant that no LDS children could have advanced. Having an alternative was very important to us, so I imagine that's one reason it isn't necessary in the program requirements. But hey, maybe after we leave next year they can make it a requirement after all!

didn't know that about LDS

curious as to what their reasoning is for that?

with what you said, does make a little more sense,

as for myself(non-lds) we highly encourage camping, whether camping with the pack, or family camping on their own

 

[David CO]

15 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

But but...it's dark and scary out there, and little Timmy has a lot to do, and the cell phone reception is weak, and toilets are scarce, and there was soccer.....

I agree that Timmy shouldn't be camping. He was small for his age and very clumsy. Barely a week went by that he didn't fall into a well, get stuck on the edge of a cliff, or some such thing. The poor boy would have never lived to see puberty if it wasn't for his dog.

 

[Jameson76]

2 minutes ago, David CO said:

I agree that Timmy shouldn't be camping. He was small for his age and very clumsy. Barely a week went by that he didn't fall into a well, get stuck on the edge of a cliff, or some such thing. The poor boy would have never lived to see puberty if it wasn't for his dog.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

On 6/3/2018 at 7:12 PM, Ranman328 said:

Actually, the new program is a two year program.  

I thought it was 18 months. 7 months to earn Webelos ( 1 Activity badge/month), 7 months to earn AOL (1 activity/per month), and  approx.4 months added in for the tenure requirement ( which varies due to age).

Webelos can work on both set of requirements simultaneously, otherwise LDS Webelos would have to make a choice: earn Webelos or AOL.

[The Latin Scot]

1 hour ago, Terasec said:

didn't know that about LDS

curious as to what their reasoning is for that?

with what you said, does make a little more sense,

as for myself(non-lds) we highly encourage camping, whether camping with the pack, or family camping on their own

There are a number of factors; they range from liability and supervision concerns to simply wanting children to spend as much time with their families as possible (hence why family camping is okay, but den-organized camping is discouraged). We wean them into it a little more slowly as well, which is why our 11 year-old Scouts only go on three camping trips before they are 12. But after that it seems they do nothing BUT camp; honestly sometimes I feel I never see the 12 year-olds anymore! So maybe that's another reason we wait until they are older - once they are old enough we hardly see them any more! But that of course depends on the local units too. 

47 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I thought it was 18 months. 7 months to earn Webelos ( 1 Activity badge/month), 7 months to earn AOL (1 activity/per month), and  approx.4 months added in for the tenure requirement ( which varies due to age).

Webelos can work on both set of requirements simultaneously, otherwise LDS Webelos would have to make a choice: earn Webelos or AOL.

Wow that long?! With the new requirements my boys usually finish their Webelos rank in 4 months, and in my group very few have been with me longer than 8 or 9 months before they get their Arrow of Light. I make sure the boys do at least a few adventures at home with their parents, which makes a difference. Not only does it get the family involved with the boys' advancement and success, but it also means I can cover more material in my den meetings since I know I am not cramming EVERYTHING they need to advance into my activities. 

Sure, some boys may take a little longer, but I have been lucky to have wonderful families who genuinely want to be involved, so when I send a request to complete an adventure in my monthly newsletter, I can almost count on them getting it done by the next month. A typical boy in my den joins on his tenth birthday, earns his Webelos rank after about 4 months, and achieves his Arrow of light after about 8 or 9 months. Depending on when birthdays fall, some may take longer so that younger ones can catch up, or they might get them a month or two earlier since they are keeping pace with a few older boys. But almost always, a boy will have a few months after earning his AofL to earn a few extra awards (they LOVE the World Conservation Award) and of course to spend extra time preparing to join the Boy Scout troop. Since we don't take summers off and I RARELY cancel our weekly meetings, we usually have plenty of time to get everything done, and to be honest I don't often use the simplified requirements. There's normally plenty of time to work on the full adventure.

[Eagle94-A1]

@The Latin Scot,

I'm still use to the June 2015 to December 2016 Cub Scout requirements. Those requirements were meant to complete 1 Adventure/month for all levels. Apparently a lot of people complained about them being more involved or harder, so National revamped all of the Cub Scout requirements in December 2016. Apparently it made them easier to do.

I know the Castaway Adventure  for Webelos was watereddown. Middle son had to do a week without electronics, save school related, in order to get it. But a year later when youngest earned it,  that requirement was no more. Middle son was a little peeved.

 

[Thunderbird]

My understanding is that the Webelos program is still intended to be around 18-20 months (for non-LDS packs), with crossover around January-March of the 5th grade year (individual packs vary).  With the current requirements, they can complete the Webelos and AOL ranks sooner, but IMO it makes for a better experience and allows more time for them to be better prepared for Boy Scouts (especially for the younger kids - some of whom will be closer to their 10th birthday) if they aren't rushed.  Extra time means more opportunities for more experiences such as visiting Boy Scout troops or earning additional adventure pins (or other awards). 

It also allows kids who are not old enough to join a Boy Scout troop at the beginning of the 5th grade school year to be able to join a Cub Scout pack and learn some skills while working on the AOL rank prior to joining a troop.  (A new Scout who joins in August-September of the 5th grade wouldn't be able to meet the active tenure requirement until around February-March.)

From what I have seen, the Scouts who take more than about 2-3 weeks to earn Scout rank is usually due to a lack of participation from their parent/guardian (required for reqt. #6).