Transition from Scouter-lead to Scout-lead

[Hawkwin]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

And as someone mentioned in another thread, the influx of new Scouters will be a major problem. Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts are two completely separate programs, with separate methods.  Cub Scout Leaders must "unlearn what you have learned" because they are not in charge anymore, the Scouts are. For the last 3 years, I have seen parents push and push to make Boy Scouts more like Cub Scouts. I see it happening with my troop right now.

This was posted on a different thread but I didn't want to create an in-thread tangent.

I've been a cub scout committee member and a popcorn kernel for my son's pack. When he crossed over, I did not take an active role in the troop (I needed a break from 3 years as a popcorn kernel - I ran it like a year-round position). Even though my son's SM did a good job of trying to teach the parents how boy scouts was different from cub scouts, I still didn't get it for many months later and much through my own self-education. I would imagine that the vast majority of parents (especially those not active in any leadership capacity) never really get it at all.

As a Webelos Den Leader, I don't recall any of my official training that focuses on transitioning from scouter to scout led. I know that there are some tasks that ask the scouts to perform as a patrol but those are exceptionally limited. For example, on requirement #3 of Scouting Adventure (AOL requirement), the Leader Guide doesn't even tell the leader what is different about a patrol vs a den. The Guide assumes that the reader already knows - and I don't imagine very many Webelos den leaders know the difference if they have not been a scout before. My son's Den Leader certainly didn't since she is a woman and could not have been a scout prior. If she spent any time focusing in how a patrol is different than a den, I certainly don't recall such.

If I had no prior experience with Boy Scouts, I would have no idea as a Web Den Leader that patrols should be any significantly different than dens.

Seems like if we really want scouts to be scout-led, we need to have a much more structured (and printed) guide to what that should look like. If such already exists, please link it to this thread.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

7 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

As a Webelos Den Leader, I don't recall any of my official training that focuses on transitioning from scouter to scout led. I know that there are some tasks that ask the scouts to perform as a patrol but those are exceptionally limited. For example, on requirement #3 of Scouting Adventure (AOL requirement), the Leader Guide doesn't even tell the leader what is different about a patrol vs a den. The Guide assumes that the reader already knows - and I don't imagine very many Webelos den leaders know the difference if they have not been a scout before. My son's Den Leader certainly didn't since she is a woman and could not have been a scout prior. If she spent any time focusing in how a patrol is different than a den, I certainly don't recall such.

If I had no prior experience with Boy Scouts, I would have no idea as a Web Den Leader that patrols should be any significantly different than dens.

Seems like if we really want scouts to be scout-led, we need to have a much more structured (and printed) guide to what that should look like. If such already exists, please link it to this thread.

 

That is part of the problem, WDL, heck all Cub Scout Leader Training, has been watered down over the past 15+ years, that a lot of information that use to be taught is no more.  I know my WDL back in the day took a step back and let the Den Chief (DC) do a lot of the work.

As for current BSA materials, they are non-existant. To get a true understanding of the Patrol Method, you need to go back to pre-1972, William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt materials to get a glimpse of what Scouting is suppose to be like.

[Hawkwin]

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As for current BSA materials, they are non-existant. To get a true understanding of the Patrol Method, you need to go back to pre-1972, William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt materials to get a glimpse of what Scouting is suppose to be like.

Has no enterprising Scouter tried to create an unofficial modern day document that details the patrol method?

I've seen some of those Hillcourt materials but only pages at a time. Was there a single book where all of this was once written? Is there a book I can buy that covers it now? Seems like good required reading (for scouts and scouters) if so.

[AltadenaCraig]

7 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Has no enterprising Scouter tried to create an unofficial modern day document that details the patrol method?

Queue Clarke Green at Scoutmastercg.com

https://scoutmastercg.com/category/patrol-method/

[Eagledad]

For the boys side, get the SPL Handbook and Patrol Leader Handbook.

For the adults side, set up the adults camp site 100 yards away from the Patrol camp sites and wait for them to tell you what to do.

The adults should also use the SPL Handbook and PL Handbook so they know what the patrols are doing. 

Barry

[The Latin Scot]

When I first started as a WDL a few years back, I didn't have much to go on either. But it was clear from the Scouting Adventure adventure requirements (curse that redundant name!) that I needed to understand the difference between how a den works vs. how a patrol works, so I did as much research as I could. That was actually one of the reasons I first joined this website, which helped tremendously (thanks everybody!). I also read the Patrol Leader's Handbook and the Senior Patrol Leader's Handbook, and every general Scout Handbook from 2911 to today's. They all helped a lot. I also read every edition of the Scoutmaster's handbook and did a lot of online studying so that when my Webelos come to the time when we practice the Patrol Method, we practice the patrol method. I give them a whole month of preparation, first by visiting a Scout Troop so they can see what the Patrol Method looks like, then letting them know that I won't be getting involved, instructing them on how the method will look, getting our Den Chief and other visiting Scouts to come and talk about the method, teaching them how thier month-long Patrol Leader will need to step up their duties, et cetera. Then for a month I sit back and let them run it! Does it go perfectly? Of course not! BUT DO THEY GET IT? - mercy yes they do! 

The difficulty is making sure their new Scoutmasters and ASMs keep up the work once the boys leave my group and enter theirs. 

[Eagle94-A1]

You can tell I'm a historian by training as I like primary documents. For Scouting in the US, William Hillcourt IS the primary source. His 3rd edition SM Handbok, 2 vols, is a wealth of information. His later  SM Hanbooks are condensed and updated, i.e. policies, uniforms, etc, versions of that one. Also read his PL handbooks and anything else written by him, i.e. training syllabi, other books, etc.

 

The Dump has a lot of info on Patrol Method as well as inquiry.net. The last one has a lot of old school info as well. Clark Green also has some good info, and I wish my fellow Scouters in my troop would read him as well.

[Eagledad]

The most important part of patrol method is understanding what the goal is for the scouts. If you don't know where you are going, how do you know when you are off the trail?

Barry

[Hawkwin]

37 minutes ago, AltadenaCraig said:

Queue Clarke Green at Scoutmastercg.com

https://scoutmastercg.com/category/patrol-method/

Thanks, I've been to his site before and the stuff there is useful, just not in a consolidated format that I would prefer.

[Hawkwin]

35 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

For the boys side, get the SPL Handbook and Patrol Leader Handbook.

 

Thank you. This illustrates part of my frustration. My son was a Patrol Leader and I was not even aware that such a handbook existed and I am quite confident that one was never provided to him.

Something like this for Denners would be a nice touch. I know my son, now a Den Chief, had to complete some training too.

Quote

set up the adults camp site 100 yards away from the Patrol camp sites and wait for them to tell you what to do.

Unfortunately, we both know it is a lot more complex than simply what to do on camp outs. Things like communication - that the scout should contact scouters and not the parent contacting the scouters. I know our troop often sends out email about service events and all parents are copied on the email. It is (and has been) very easy for me to simply sign up my son for some service event but it really should be him. There are a myriad of little things like that.

Again, our SM educated the parents on this topic (at least those parents that came to the meeting) but I feel like I should be educating the parents as a Webelos leader as to how scouts are different than cubs and how parents will need to take a step back. This is education that should happen before a cub crosses over.

[Eagledad]

43 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Again, our SM educated the parents on this topic (at least those parents that came to the meeting) but I feel like I should be educating the parents as a Webelos leader as to how scouts are different than cubs and how parents will need to take a step back. This is education that should happen before a cub crosses over.

Every troop is different in their policies and procedures, so I'm not sure how far a Webelos leader would want to go. Of course joining an existing troop has it's own challenges because they may not have a program that fits your goals for your scouts. This is what we ran into as we looked. So, we decided to start a new troop. And that was much easier.

Barry

 

[qwazse]

Out of the mouths of babes and post-modern nomads ...

12 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

... Unfortunately, we both know it is a lot more complex than simply what to do on camp outs. ...

Here's the thing. PM is so simple that we have a hard time believing that a vision of the pinnacle scouting experience, hiking and camping independently with your mates, is all that a bunch of scouts (military or boy) would need.

GBB's articles in Boy's Life were pure gold. They gave you, the scout, tips on how to take your boys out and do stuff. Then, when you had a scout who needed to hike around for one requirement or another, you'd pipe up and say, "Hey, while we're at it, let's try this! Be at Dave's house Saturday."

I never got a lot of directives of how to behave as a PL. We got a room in the meeting house, and were assigned tasks. As a troop, we filled in the blanks on permission ships, which included an "I can drive __ scouts to/from the activity". You'd set up camp. How well you did it was up to you. The SM/ASM/JASM or SPL would then come around and throw down tasks/challenges (from either Scouter or Boy's Life). The BSHB showed ideas on how to make a stencil for a flag. So I begged/bought the fixings to make our banner at summer camp. (It did not warn me that my can of spray paint might be procured for an improvised flame thrower.)

On the flip side, it was rare that we went camping more than 30 minutes from home. Never worried about a trailer. Water purification was never a concern. (Don't like the sulfur water from the local well? Bring your own canteen next time.) Most parents dropped off and left. ASMs were mainly college students who had precious little resources to buy fancy camping gadgets. And, we never saw the inside of a cabin! We might use public adirondaks on our trails (never saw another hiker on the ones we picked at the time of year we hiked them), but they were often nasty enough that I requisitioned a tent.  Big-ticket scouting was what one or two scouts might every year or two. The options were Jambo, WSJ, Philmont, and you went provisionally. There was no cluster of parents who would get together and raise funds for a patrol to blow that much coin. In that context, summer camp and council camporees were the grandest things most of us ever saw.

I guess with those limited options, it was much easier to be a patrol, to get to know farmers and public land managers, and to as the shoe slogan goes Just Do It.

[Eagle94-A1]

While every troop is different, and yes I think Webelos do need to look for the one that fits them, the process of getting the parents to back away NEEDS to start at the Webelos level AT THE LATEST! I'll use the two packs than feed my troop. Both packs do similar activities and have similar outlooks as Pack B split off of Pack A. Both do camping, outdoor activites, etc. But the biggest difference is Webelos. Pack A begins putting responsibility on them as soon as they cross over. DLs and CM remind parents to start letting the Webelos do their own thing. In other words, they are transitioning. Pack B however continues to treat their Webelos as Cub Scouts; the parents still do everythign for them When Pack A's Webelos cross over they tend to stay around. Out of the 11 Webelos from that pack since 2014, all 11 are still active. Pack B has had at least 18 cross over, and only 7 remain.

There was a discussion about the retention problem around the campfire a few months back. SM stated that the new Webelos program is not preparing them for Boy Scouts. I said the issue was not the program but implementation. That a crossed over Webelos with the Arrow of Light should be able to get his Scout rank the same nite as he crosses over as the all the requirements of the Scout Rank, except the SM conference, are required for AOL. We bet a Dutch oven Cake on it. At first he showed the AOL requirements, and said I owed him a cake. I pointed out that he needs to read the Scouting Adventure Badge requirements since that badge is required for AOL.  85.71% identicval

[blw2]

19 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

The Guide assumes that the reader already knows - and I don't imagine very many Webelos den leaders know the difference if they have not been a scout before.

I think it's very important to consider that even adults that were scouts may not necessarily know.  I'd argue based on my observations that a really really high percentage of folks, probably a majority,  that were scouts and even eagles don't really know what the patrol method is.

[MattR]

17 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Seems like if we really want scouts to be scout-led, we need to have a much more structured (and printed) guide to what that should look like. If such already exists, please link it to this thread. 

You'd think. Or at least hope they'd think about it, whoever they are that might be writing the document you'd like.

Hillcourt is dripping with enthusiasm. But as you say, it's spread out and you have to dig for it. But if you don't know what you're digging for ....

A lot of what I've seen talks about what the scouts are responsible for. As Eagledad said, the SPL and PL handbook are good for that. What isn't covered so well is how to do it. I think there are some issues that are particular to today's youth that need more focus. Teamwork, delegation, and planning seem to really hang up scouts. I'm sure we all were bad at planning at that age but the others seem to be worse now. So there are scouts that don't understand teamwork and a leader that doesn't want to delegate. The result is ad-hoc. While it works it's really slow.

It all gets down to many scouts really don't feel comfortable making decisions, especially if it involves other people.

Some guidance for adults on how to overcome these problems would help. We started something that really helps with planning. The issue with planning seems to be the scouts don't understand how much detail is needed or that things don't always go as planned. So we just ask them to make a presentation about their plan and all we do is ask them lots of questions along the lines of who, what, where, when. As long as the basic idea is scout appropriate we go with it. The scouts were a bit intimidated at first but now they walk out with a lot more confidence.