And yet more changes - even Pedro is not spared

[Gwaihir]

On 5/25/2018 at 12:19 PM, Buggie said:

I get why people feel that the magazine name change shouldn't have happened. Still I wonder, would you feel comfortable reading a magazine for the program if it was titled, "Girls Life"?  

There should have been two magazines.  All of this program change is in the name of growth.  Grow then.  Make a new magazine, have some cross-over content, and then have some content specific to girls and boys wants.  Feature male heroes in Boys' Life and female heroes and role models in Life for Girls.  Changing everything to neutral is lazy circling of the wagons.  

[Gwaihir]

On 5/25/2018 at 12:43 PM, Thunderbird said:

While I cannot speak for anybody else, as a female, I would have felt perfectly comfortable reading a magazine called "Boys Life".  If I were younger and joining the BSA because of its program, I would not want or expect the program to change its name or that of its magazine just to accommodate me.  Obviously, it would make sense to change a few things here and there (like the Family Life merit badge requirement on what it means to be an effective father).  But I don't see why changing the name of the program or the magazine is necessary or "Thrifty".

I'm very curious if the change will be 

"what it means to be an effective father if you're a boy and what it means to be an effective mother if you're a girl" or if they just say "parent".  Which would be trash. 

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

There should have been two magazines.  All of this program change is in the name of growth.  Grow then.  Make a new magazine, have some cross-over content, and then have some content specific to girls and boys wants.  Feature male heroes in Boys' Life and female heroes and role models in Life for Girls.  Changing everything to neutral is lazy circling of the wagons.  

I think folks misunderstand what is really going on here.  The BSA is going co-ed.  While you can have boy troops and girl troops, it is becoming a  co-ed activity.

It's not circling of the wagons, it's a clear choice of the executive board of the BSA.  Girls are becoming equal members of the movement.  That's why the name changes and admittance to the OA don't surprise me.  They shouldn't surprise anyone else either.

These things are not program.  Program is activities, camping, youth led, advancement, etc. Program is not the name of the magazine or who can belong to the OA.  Program is what the OA does and how it does it.

You can have all the outrage at it that you want, but it's just the evolution of the decision they made last year. 

[FireStone]

11 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

...You can have all the outrage at it that you want, but it's just the evolution of the decision they made last year. 

I still can't believe there is even outrage at all over a magazine title. Then again, this forum never ceases to amaze me with what brings out the pitchforks. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that someone is threatening to quit because there will be photos of girls in the handbooks. 

[RememberSchiff]

3 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

I'm very curious if the change will be 

"what it means to be an effective father if you're a boy and what it means to be an effective mother if you're a girl" or if they just say "parent".  Which would be trash. 

Unkind words. What if the scout comes from a single parent family? But for me,  Family Life should be a family matter not a merit badge so that problem would not exist.

Another $0.02

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[Gwaihir]

2 hours ago, FireStone said:

I still can't believe there is even outrage at all over a magazine title. Then again, this forum never ceases to amaze me with what brings out the pitchforks. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that someone is threatening to quit because there will be photos of girls in the handbooks. 

It's not "outrage",  outrage is reserved for Hamas terrorists killing Jews.  This is anger, but not because of a name change.  CSE Michael Saurbaugh repeatedly stated the BSA respects and believes in the differences between boys and girls and will stand by the benefits of single-gender to reach those unique differences... and then purposefully and with intent they do the exact opposite.  It's called lying, and what amazes me most is how easily some so willing accept the lying as something that's a-ok.  I often wonder what other points of the Scout law are so nonchalantly disregarded in some of the units around the country because "trustworthy" is not even on the radar any longer. 

[Gwaihir]

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Unkind words. What if the scout comes from a single parent family? But for me,  Family Life should be a family matter not a merit badge so that problem would not exist.

Another $0.02

 

I agree with you that it shouldn't even be a merit badge, but single parent family is irrelevant.  I stand by my point, change the words to be "find out what it means to be an effective father from a loved one such as your father, uncle, grandfather, etc if you're a boy and what it means to be an effective mother from a loved one such as your mother, aunt, grandmother, etc if you're a girl" The point of the requirement is to teach the boy how to grow up to be a good father and to teach the girl how to grow up to be a good mother.  

 

And unless you were saying the requirement was unkind words, I would argue a Scout is to be kind to people, not to ideas.  Ideas can be horrible, and should be chastised openly and publicly bravely.  I think changing the requirement to "parent" is a bad idea.  

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Gwaihir

[RememberSchiff]

I have no problem with using the word "parent", it certainly is not "trash". Why such an unkind comment?

Maybe this thread has run its course?

Edited May 27, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[Gwaihir]

8 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

I have no problem with using the word "parent", it certainly is not "trash". Why such an unkind comment?

Maybe this thread has run its course?

because I'm critical of the idea that parents are homogeneous and that mothers and fathers are interchangeable.   Parent in and of itself is not trash, that's fairly obvious.  Again, I'm critical of an idea.  Not of people. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Gwaihir

[The Latin Scot]

I think it would be far more instructive if there were three parts to the requirement.

a. Explain the role and importance of the Father in the family.

b. Explain the role and importance of the Mother in the family.

c.Explain how they are different, and how both together contribute to building stronger family ties.

Whether the Scout is a boy or a girl, from a healthy family or a broken home, these questions are important, and will help develop stronger families in the future as the Scouts learn to understand the vital nature of each parental role in their families, whether present or future.

Edited May 27, 2018 by The Latin Scot

[Thunderbird]

I didn't really intend to start a tangent, but the way that the family life merit badge requirement is currently worded, it leads me to believe that part of the intent behind the requirement is for the Scout to think about what makes an effect father in order to get the Scout to think about his own potential future role as a father.

"7a. Your understanding of what makes an effective father and why, and your thoughts on the father’s role in the family."

That's why, in my opinion (and I could be wrong), it doesn't ask about what makes an effective mother or parent - although it does ask about the Scout's understanding of the responsibilities of a parent in the next requirement.  That's also why, IMO, if they wanted to keep the same intent behind the requirement, it would make sense to change it to ask boys what makes an effective father and to ask girls what makes an effective mother - instead of the more generic "parent".

[walk in the woods]

12 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I think folks misunderstand what is really going on here.  The BSA is going co-ed.  While you can have boy troops and girl troops, it is becoming a  co-ed activity.

Actually the CSE very specifically said, on multiple occasions, the BSA is not going co-ed.  Are you saying the CSE lied to us? 😱

[SSScout]

"  Let's eat granma !"     "Let's eat, (comma) granma !"

Boys' life,,,,     Boy's Life

Scout Life , , , ,    Scouts'   Life , , ,    Scout's    Life , , , 

When the first Scout Handbook (" Scouting for Boys" was it?) was published by Mr. Baden-Powell,   why did the idea take off?   Why did  boys (and girls  don't forget ! ) flock to the idea of an organization that encouraged, taught,  idealized woodsy skills, self reliance,  patriotism,  world brotherhood (sisterhood?) . . .  

a hundred plus years ago,  if B-P hadn't told his wife that she could start a female equivalent, but COULD NOT call it "Scouting", where might we be now ?   

Perhaps this is all about doing right what should 've been done all along ?   

I favor putting that comma/apostrophe in it's right place.    Make it    Scouts'  Life.   

Write the letter/email. 

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

Actually the CSE very specifically said, on multiple occasions, the BSA is not going co-ed.  Are you saying the CSE lied to us? 😱

This is a silly game.  Let's find a way to parse what the CEO said so we can ignore the reality.

Let's see...

The specific program formerly known as Boy Scouts is not going co-ed.  The BSA is starting a parallel implementation of the same program in which girls can participate.  Overall, the membership policies of the BSA will now allow both  girls and boys the ability to fully participate in it's offerings.  In Cub Scouts, the girls and boys will participate in the same program, but in parallel dens.  In Scouts BSA, the girls and boys will participate in the same program in parallel troops.  Both Venturing and Sea Scouts are already fully co-ed.

 

 

[FireStone]

14 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

It's not "outrage",  outrage is reserved for Hamas terrorists killing Jews.  This is anger, but not because of a name change.  CSE Michael Saurbaugh repeatedly stated the BSA respects and believes in the differences between boys and girls and will stand by the benefits of single-gender to reach those unique differences... and then purposefully and with intent they do the exact opposite.  It's called lying, and what amazes me most is how easily some so willing accept the lying as something that's a-ok.  I often wonder what other points of the Scout law are so nonchalantly disregarded in some of the units around the country because "trustworthy" is not even on the radar any longer. 

Changing the name of a magazine doesn't change the way we teach kids, in single-gender groups or otherwise. Nor does changing the name of a program.

He didn't lie. The original plan, what he spoke of, was single-gender Dens and/or single-gender Packs, and single-gender Troops. That's what we're going ahead with, still teaching kids in gender-specific groups. There was no "lying". 

So your implication that the Scout Law is "nonchalantly disregarded" by me or anyone else is, as you like to say, "trash." 

Edited May 27, 2018 by FireStone