2018 GUIDE TO SAFE SCOUTING

[TAHAWK]

No.  They said no decision was required.   The penalty followed automatically from having the knife, regardless of any intent or knowledge that anyone with reason could regard such a tiny knife as a "weapon"- thus dodging the issue of whether the knife was a "weapon" rather than a common tool.

I suppose it was coincidental that he was an Eagle Scout.  It should not have been done to anyone without some reason to decide that the knife was a weapon, rather than something else - say a common tool that helped make him more "prepared"for a winter crisis.  

 

In Ohio, our Supreme Court has held, one cannot be prosecuted for "carrying a concealed weapon" for having a knife on their person absent a finding that there is probable cause to believe the knife was carried with the intent that it be a weapon.  Obviously, our precious children deserve less in some eyes.

And nutso penalties are meted out regularly in No Tolerance Land:

"A 6-year-old boy's excitement over joining the Cub Scouts may just land him in reform school for 45 days.

Zachary Christie was suspended from his 1st grade class in Delaware's Christina School District after bringing a camping utensil - a combination knife/fork/spoon [aka "Hobo knife") - to use at lunch, prompting calls to reexamine schools' zero-tolerance policy for bringing weapons to school, according to a New York Times report Monday.

Zero tolerance policies were instituted in many school districts across the country, at least in part due to violence at Columbine and Virginia Tech, the report notes. Their rigid enforcement is designed to eliminate the appearance of bias or discrimination on the part of school officials.

The school district's policy is enforced "regardless of intent" and "does not take into consideration a child's age," reports CBS News correspondent Jim Axelrod.

But residents, and some lawmakers, are now wondering why schools can't apply a more common-sense discretion to such instances.

"It just seems unfair," said Zachary, who is being home-schooled while his mother, Debbie Christie, tries to fight the suspension. That involved Zachary appearing before a district disciplinary committee with his karate instructor and mother's fiancé vouching for him as character witnesses.

"Zachary wears a suit and tie some days to school by his own choice because he takes school so seriously," his mother said. "He is not some sort of threat to his classmates."

Christie started a Web site, helpzachary.com, to drum up support for her son.

State Representative Teresa L. Schooley wrote the disciplinary committee, asking each member to "consider the situation, get all the facts, find out about Zach and his family and then act with common sense for the well-being of this child."

But the strict enforcement of the policy has its supporters.

"There is no parent who wants to get a phone call where they hear that their child no longer has two good seeing eyes because there was a scuffle and someone pulled out a knife [pencil, pen, finger, scissors, drafting ruler?]," said George Evans, the school district board's president.

There has been a move to give school officials more flexibility in "weapon"-related incidents. After a third-grade girl was expelled for a year after bringing in a knife to cut the birthday cake her grandmother sent in to the class, a new law was passed allowing officials to modify punishments on a case-by-case basis. But that was for expulsions, not suspensions as Zachary is faced with. Another revision to the law is being drafted to address suspensions, according to the report."

     © 2009 CBS. All rights reserved.

 

"

"It’s a Fork, It’s a Spoon, It’s a ... Weapon?

For Delaware, Zachary’s case is especially frustrating because last year state lawmakers tried to make disciplinary rules more flexible by giving local boards authority to, “on a case-by-case basis, modify the terms of the expulsion.”

The law was introduced after a third-grade girl was expelled for a year because her grandmother had sent a birthday cake to school, along with a knife to cut it. The teacher called the principal — but not before using the knife to cut and serve the cake."

         New York Times  at https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html?_r=1>

"Chapter 5 of One Nation Under Arrest is titled “Criminalizing Kids.” This chapter includes stories demonstrating that it is not just adults who face the dangers of overcriminalization. The prevailing mindset among most legislators and government policy makers is that criminal law and criminal punishment are generally the best tools to “solve” any important problem. As a result, more and more children have been victimized by overcriminalization.

The Boy Scout motto is “Be Prepared,” but not even Miles Rankin’s Scout Master could have prepared Miles for the injustice this twelve-year-old adventurer would suffer in Henry County, Georgia. Miles Rankin was a dedicated student with good grades. In addition to being diligent in his studies, Miles was learning to serve his community with the Boy Scouts.

So it was shocking to many when they saw Miles being handcuffed in class, marched through his school by uniformed police officers, and taken away in a squad car to a juvenile detention facility. What was his offense? He did not take his coveted Boy Scout pocket knife out of his pocket before leaving home that morning.

Unfortunately, cases like these have become increasingly common. In an effort to solve specific problems, lawmakers and public officials are eager to pass laws and implement policies that criminalize behavior regardless of the offender’s intent. Miles’s case is a perfect example. After showing some of his friends the two-inch pocket knife, one of them informed the teacher. None of the students who saw the knife said they felt threatened, nor did they think Miles might harm someone. There was no evidence that Miles had any intention of doing anything wrongful with the knife. While a school has every right to impose reasonable and appropriate discipline upon a student if his behavior violates school policy or poses a risk to others, the school board’s actions in this case were downright ludicrous. As if the humiliation of being treated like a common criminal in his own school and in front of his peers was not enough, that is only half of Miles’s story.

After being taken to a detention facility, Miles was brought to juvenile court where Henry County officials added additional restraints. The presiding judge, who coincidentally also served as the attorney for the school board, decided that Miles should remain in the detention center. Only after Miles had spent 48 hours away locked up were his parents able to pick him up on conditional release. Following his stint in juvenile detention, the school held a disciplinary hearing, where he freely admitted to bringing the knife to school. The frightened 12-year-old was subsequently expelled for the remainder of the year. The Rankin family appealed the punishment, but the Henry County school board simply reviewed the transcript without conducting an independent inquiry of its own before affirming the school’s decision. Compounding the hardship Miles faced, the juvenile court deemed Miles “in a state of delinquency” and ordered him to serve thirty days under house arrest, imposed a curfew on him, and placed him on 180 days of probation.

Miles’ story is not unique. Dozens of other innocent Americans like Miles have suffered from the arbitrary and unjust exercise of power that comes from overbroad criminal laws. When a Boy Scout’s merely carrying a two-inch pocket knife is a crime, we are in grave danger of criminalizing almost everything. This is just one example of “overcriminalization,” and you can read about more in “One Nation Under Arrest: How Crazy Laws, Rogue Prosecutors and Activist Judges Threaten Your Liberty” and at our web site, Overcriminalized.com

Miles Rankin’s legal troubles stemmed from the zero-tolerance policy in his school. Zero-tolerance policies result in part from the propensity of many parents to challenge and even sue school officials for almost any exercise of professional judgment and discretion. Many school boards and administrators try to protect themselves by adopting zero-tolerance policies that allow for no exercise of judgment at all. Zero-tolerance policies do nothing, however, to engender respect for the law or for the officials who tie their hands with them.

Of course, protecting students is a top priority, but in the process of ensuring safety, lawmakers and public officials must not abandon common sense and professional judgment. Miles Rankin and his family’s life have been scarred by an indiscriminate group of administrators who found it easier to hide behind a zero-tolerance policy than to exercise sound judgment. They were so caught up in their own policy that they could not appreciate the real-life consequences of such an irresponsible application of law.

What kind of message does that send to society? Miles’s situation resulted from a knife he used in the Boy Scouts. He was not a gang member planning an attack on a fellow classmate. Like thousands upon thousands of Scouts before him, Miles was showing off one of the tools he learned to use while also learning the principles of good citizenship and how to serve his community. After this deplorable application of criminal law and school policy by Henry County’s public officials, maybe they too could benefit from a lesson in these virtues. And perhaps clear-thinking voters later gave them one."

Scott Burton at www.dailysignal.com/2010/05/24/one-nation-under-arrest-the-end-of-the-pocket-knife/.  (The author is an intern in the Center for Legal and Judicial Studies at The Heritage Foundation.)

The quality of mercy is not strained;
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.

     The Merchant of Venice, Act IV, Scene I, 

“Hence, as regards man, who has God above him, charity, which unites him to God, is greater than mercy, whereby he supplies the defects of his neighbor. But of all the virtues which relate to our neighbor, mercy is the greatest, even as its act surpasses all others, since it belongs to one who is higher and better to supply the defect of another, in so far as the latter is deficient.”

     St. Thomas Aquinas (ST IIa-IIae, 30)[emphasis added ]

Edited July 9, 2018 by TAHAWK

[bearess]

11 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

 

In Ohio, our Supreme Court has held, one cannot be prosecuted for "carrying a concealed weapon" for having a knife of their person absent a finding that there is probable cause to believe the knife was carried with the intent that it be a weapon.  Obviously, our precious children deserve less in some eyes.

Miles Rankin’s legal troubles stemmed from the zero-tolerance policy in his school. 

 Miles Rankin and his family’s life have been scarred by an indiscriminate group of administrators who found it easier to hide behind a zero-tolerance policy than to exercise sound judgment. 

. Like thousands upon thousands of Scouts before him, Miles was showing off one of the tools he learned to use  

 

First of all, schools can have zero tolerance policies for all kinds of things that are allowed other places—alcohol, tobacco, guns, knives, marijuana, etc.  The point about the Supreme Court ruling on what constitutes a weapon is specious.

The young boy who brought a pocket knife to school isn’t in trouble because of zero tolerance policies.  He’s in trouble because he knew the school rule, brought a knife to school anyway, showed it to his friends, and got caught.  If you deliberately flout the rules, yes, you are punished.  It doesn’t really matter if you think the rules shouldn’t apply to you or that the rules shouldn’t be so harsh in your case.  That seems to be the argument here— that the kid only broke the rule to shows his friends, who didn’t feel threatened, his knife— in other words, he shouldn’t face consequences because........well, I don’t know.  Because he just shouldn’t, apparently.

[TAHAWK]

Whatever is is right?  We teach that it is OK to work for change.  That is how we got a nation.  The Eagle reported himself, as you, understandably, did not.  He was punished.  You were not.  He did no more wrong - if any - in a moral or ethical sense

[bearess]

https://nypost.com/2009/10/14/eagle-scout-suspended-for-keeping-2-inch-knife-in-car/

it sounds like this is the story.  He did admit to it— good for him— but only after he was confronted by the administration.  It sounds like other students knew he kept a knife in his car.  Again, I’m left questioning why he would share that information.  He didn’t just forget it was there, he was bringing it every day and, at least once, sharing/telling other students.  And, again, the argument that “no crime occurred” means nothing.  It wasn’t a crime for me to have a bottle of wine in my trunk.  It wouldn’t be a crime for me to have a pack of cigarettes in my purse.  But both of those things could get me fired from my job, and I would be subject to professional sanctions.

i absolutely think there are times when zero tolerance policies go overboard— the elementary aged boy with the camping utensil is a perfect example.  But a high school or middle school student who appears to be deliberately disobeying the rules— and sharing that with other kids?  My sympathy is limited.

[NJCubScouter]

1 hour ago, bearess said:

Also, after nearly fifteen years working in public schools, all of which have “zero tolerance” policies, I have seen administrators bend those policies a handful of times, and I was always in agreement with their choices.  In those cases, they also took responsibility for their choice to bend the policy, knowing that doing so could have professional consequences.  

If the administrators "bent" the policy, it was not really a "zero tolerance" policy.  Or, to be more precise, either (1) the policy is worded as a zero tolerance policy, but the policy is not followed as a zero tolerance, because exceptions are made, or (2) the school district called the policy a "zero tolerance" policy, but the way it was worded allowed the exercise of judgment to alter (or eliminate) the penalty in appropriate cases, in which case it is not a zero tolerance policy regardless of what its name is. You can call an apple a banana, but its still an apple.  (Credit to CNN.)

1 hour ago, bearess said:

I suspect that, for every “Eagle Scout with a small survival knife” story, there are dozens of times when administrators deal with incidents with wisdom and careful judgment.  But, the rules are the rules.  Once, when I was teaching, I bought a bottle,of wine and left it in my car overnight.  Mid-morning, the next day, it occurred to me that I had alcohol on school grounds— in the trunk of my car.  I went and moved my car out of the school parking lot at the first opportunity.  Had an administrator found the alcohol in my car, I would have been fired in the spot.  It would have been awful, over an oversight, but it would have been just and fair, as well.

Well, first of all, in my book it wouldn't have been just and fair to fire you for that, especially since you put it in a position where it was not visible from the outside.  Some lesser penalty might be appropriate.  If you had left it in a place where a passerby (such as a student) could see it, that would be a different story. Second of all, since you left the bottle in the trunk rather than the driver/passenger area, I have to ask, under what circumstances would it be appropriate for an administrator to look in your trunk?

(I have some familiarity with disciplinary issues in a public school district, since I was once on the school board of one.)

[NJCubScouter]

It seems to me that what we have here is a lack of common understanding about what a "zero tolerance" policy actually is.  As I have said in at least one past discussion of this subject (and there have been several over the years), many people who think they believe in "zero tolerance" actually don't.  If you think that exceptions should be made (or that the penalty should be reduced) under appropriate circumstances, then you don't believe in a "zero tolerance" policy.  It's only "zero tolerance" if there is no possibility of considering the circumstances.

[bearess]

Well, realistically, you’re right— there was no reason for them to look in my trunk,  etc.  But, I signed a contract knowing alcohol on school grounds was a reason to fire a teacher on the spot.  If, somehow, it had been found, firing me would hav been fair.  And— I bet if you’d been in my position you’d have moved your car ASAP too!

I don’t knnow the precise wording of the district weapons policies where I worked.  I believe, in all cases, they were worded but not followed as zero tolerance.  I want to be clear that this happened a tiny minority of times— maybe three times in fifteen years?  And, during that time, I saw many, many more students suspended for bringing weapons to school.  

Edit to add:  I am not a fan of zero tolerance, and I think the rare exceptions to the policy (we’ll call it a ‘low tolerance’ policy) that I’ve seen were very appropriate.  But, I do feel that a kid who brings a knife to school to show to friends— knowing the rules— deserves a severe punishment.  I have no problem with a school suspending that kid.

Edited July 9, 2018 by bearess

[TAHAWK]

"Confronted"?  He was asked.  He told the truth. 

Yes I would have moved my car. 

Even the IRS makes allowances for errors in returns that reduce taxes,  unless they think intent was involved.  So compared to these "educators, "the IRS is Christ-like.

I hope for mercy, especially for innocent mistakes, as God is merciful and many mere mortals are not.  For such creatures, who elevate rules over justice,  I try to hope for mercy when they are judged.

What "weapon"?  It was a small pen knife in a survival kit.  

locked in a glove compartment in a locked vehicle.

Or do we speak of the six-year-old who showed his friends his knife/fork/spoon tool.  As an educator, you can find a definition of "weapon."  As a former educator. I certainly can.  In a prison, a sharp pencil secreted about a convict may fairly be regarded sa a weapon (AKA "shank").  This is a  school  and a six-year-old.  "Suffer the little children" does not mean Reform School for what the child did.  "Educators" (and police) like this need to be swept out at the next election.  Six years old.  Jailed.  Really??

 

[Oldscout448]

7 hours ago, David CO said:

Could you explain exactly which part of this event is absurd?  the overkill factor,   sort of like shooting a  small rabbit with an elephant gun

Are you suggesting that an eagle scout is above the rules?  I am suggesting that 99.99% of eagle scouts  are not about to use a knife of any size as an offensive weapon.  Should the rules apply to everyone except eagle scouts? Do you feel that small knives should be allowed on school grounds?   Yes !   I carried tiny swiss army knife almost every day for years.From seventh grade thru high school.   Never even thought of using it as a weapon, it was mostly used to trim fingernails If I  had wanted to harm/kill someone I could have done it faster using only hands and feet.   Do you think that we should have rules against knives on school grounds, but not enforce them?   As a society, we ignore arbitrary and capricious rules all the time.

Somebody did take responsibility for the outcome. The school board took responsibility and expelled the student. You may not like their decision, but the school board did take responsibility. They did make a decision.  Indeed,  they decided to screw up a young mans life rather than look as if they might be somehow linked to knife-violence in schools.   Its all about the optics right?   

 

 

[David CO]

25 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Its all about the optics right?

Speaking as someone who has been assaulted 6 times (stabbed once) while working as a school teacher/coach, I would have to say "no". It is not all about the optics.

[David CO]

48 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

If I had wanted to harm/kill someone I could have done it faster using only hands and feet.

I agree. My most serious injury was not the result of a stabbing. The worst one was from being kicked from behind, breaking a vertebra in my lower back. There was no way to anticipate, prevent, or stop the attack.

[NJCubScouter]

12 hours ago, bearess said:

And— I bet if you’d been in my position you’d have moved your car ASAP too!

You mean, as opposed to turning myself in?  Yes, I would have moved my car.

[NJCubScouter]

This discussion reminds me of something that happened to me a few months ago.  My wife and I (and one of my adult daughters, but that's not relevant to the story) went to a concert.  She had driven.  On her keychain she has one of these very tiny "pocket" knives.  It did not occur to her that she might have trouble getting that very tiny knife into the arena, and I had forgotten it was on her keychain.  So we walked from the parking lot to the arena, which was just within my wife's ability to walk in one stretch due to her arthritis.  Sure enough, at the security checkpoint one of the security guards saw the knife and made it clear that it was not coming into the arena with my wife.  They were reasonably polite about it.  But someone (and I think we all know who that someone was) had to trudge back to the parking lot and stow the tfiny knife in the car. 

I guess the point is that they did not arrest my wife for trying to bring a "weapon" into the arena.  They did what was necessary to protect the other concert-goers from my wife's very tiny knife, which is what they should have done, even though at the time I suppose I was slightly annoyed at having to bring this ridiculously small knife back out to the care in the middle of the winter.

[Eagledad]

10 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Or do we speak of the six-year-old who showed his friends his knife/fork/spoon tool.  As an educator, you can find a definition of "weapon."  As a former educator. I certainly can.  In a prison, a sharp pencil secreted about a convict may fairly be regarded sa a weapon (AKA "shank").  This is a  school  and a six-year-old.  "Suffer the little children" does not mean Reform School for what the child did.  "Educators" (and police) like this need to be swept out at the next election.  Six years old.  Jailed.  Really??

It's also role modeling issue for me. Locally a high school student was expelled for two weeks because he found a butter knife in his lunch box in the lunch room. Turns out mom put the knife in the lunch box for him to spread the peanut butter on his sandwich. She didn't understand the rule and she didn't tell her son. 

Our youth learn how to use judgement by watching their role models and they spend most of their day as a youth at school watching adults in action. Where are they going to learn to judge behavior fairly if the adults aren't showing any judgment at all. 

Barry

[MattR]

10 hours ago, David CO said:

Speaking as someone who has been assaulted 6 times (stabbed once) while working as a school teacher/coach, I would have to say "no". It is not all about the optics.

I tried the sad emoji but I don't want you to read it the wrong way. It's really sad that teachers are being assaulted.