2018 GUIDE TO SAFE SCOUTING

[David CO]

4 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

 Here is hoping there is some sort of grandfather clause.

Yes. It's about time we grandfathers get our own clause.

[ItsBrian]

11 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

so a troop that is planning on taking a crew to Philmont  in 5 weeks with one adult over 21 and one adult of 19 suddenly cant go?

Guess I’m not going to summer camp this year possibly. What about the small troops that don’t have 20 leaders? 

[scotteg83]

40 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

Guess I’m not going to summer camp this year possibly. What about the small troops that don’t have 20 leaders? 

don't need 20, just need 2?

[ItsBrian]

31 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

don't need 20, just need 2?

I’m just exaggerating. Many troops have 5+ leaders. We have 3, one works nights.

[blw2]

On 5/21/2018 at 10:32 PM, NealOnWheels said:

Years ago scouts could no longer camp by themselves.  Today it appears they can no longer have meetings or day activities without adults.

"Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings."

"Patrol Activities—A Scout patrol may participate in patrol activities. Two-deep adult leadership is required."

well in my experience this is how most all adults thought it was anyway.  Several times in conversations when I had suggested that patrols could have patrol meetings and such on their own, I was regarded as crazy....

On 5/23/2018 at 7:06 AM, qwazse said:

So much for meeting with an MBC, even in a public library, even if one or both non-registered parent(s) stays with the scout.

an example of when rules get too complex they most often get stupid

On 5/23/2018 at 11:18 PM, KYScouter said:

I found this interesting (from section I):

"One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both

inside and outside of Scouting."

 

A literal reading of this would mean that I can never again babysit my scout nephew, even if it's not a scouting event.  Yikes.  (Of course an even more literal reading of this means my brother can no longer take his scout son to school while mom takes younger brother to daycare.)

...and another

this sort of thing used to cross my mind when, as an example my son would have sleepovers or even just hanging out at the house with his buddy...who was the den leader...either at their house or mine.....not that we would either of us in any way be having nefarious contact, it could be conceivable that we could be left in the kitchen together for a few moments...  I just pretty much carried on as I would with any kid in my house and be careful to not do anything that could be twisted into making it look like I was doing something bad.

[Kryten]

Up to last year, patrols could do overnite campouts and day hikes  with the SM approvell. I got  our patrols out doing it(with some hesitation from other leaders). Now that's a nogo unless I can find another 4-6 leaders😭🤔.

All those new meetings sadly now gone.

1 step forward two back.

[Gwaihir]

Patrols can still do overnighters by themselves.  They just can't do it under the banner of scouting.  I assume all but the perversely helecopterish of units, this will be the case.  it'll be friends getting together on a saturday to do something together... just not as Scouts, which is exactly the opposite of what the BSA needs right now.  These rules are absurd and need to be scaled back asap.  Time to write some letters and make some calls.  Scouts can't dictate what youth do outside of scouting, despite the overly Orwellian reach Scouts seems to want to get into the family. 

[Chris1]

BUDDY SYSTEM: I found it interesting that the following was removed "The buddy system should be used at all times. The buddy system is a safety measure for all Scouting activities. Buddies should know and be comfortable with each other. Self-selection with no more than two years age or significant differences in maturity should be strongly encouraged. When necessary, a buddy team may consist of three Scouts. No youth should be forced into or made to feel uncomfortable by a buddy assignment."  and replaced with "The buddy system should be used. " .  It removes "self-selection"  age gap and "forced buddy assignments." 

So now we can force an 11 year old together with a 17 year old who he does not know, or even one he is terrified of. Wow, I'm sure that's going to work out just fine. <<please note my extreme sarcasm>>. 

[Gwaihir]

8 minutes ago, Chris1 said:

BUDDY SYSTEM: I found it interesting that the following was removed "The buddy system should be used at all times. The buddy system is a safety measure for all Scouting activities. Buddies should know and be comfortable with each other. Self-selection with no more than two years age or significant differences in maturity should be strongly encouraged. When necessary, a buddy team may consist of three Scouts. No youth should be forced into or made to feel uncomfortable by a buddy assignment."  and replaced with "The buddy system should be used. " .  It removes "self-selection"  age gap and "forced buddy assignments." 

So now we can force an 11 year old together with a 17 year old who he does not know, or even one he is terrified of. Wow, I'm sure that's going to work out just fine. <<please note my extreme sarcasm>>. 

I was told all the stuff you cite as removed, was expressly added.  Was there a very recent update? 

That said, yes, you "can" do that, but who will do that?  I doubt many.  What it does do is give you the freedom to do that in situations where it will work.  

"who he's terrified of" 

1. a scout is brave

2. a scout is friendly, kind and courteous. 

If both scouts are following the Scout law, which they should be as they show Scout spirit... this isn't an issue.  

[Thunderbird]

When do all these new rules go into effect?  Anybody know for sure?

[ParkMan]

On 5/29/2018 at 2:46 PM, Gwaihir said:

Patrols can still do overnighters by themselves.  They just can't do it under the banner of scouting.  I assume all but the perversely helecopterish of units, this will be the case.  it'll be friends getting together on a saturday to do something together... just not as Scouts, which is exactly the opposite of what the BSA needs right now.  These rules are absurd and need to be scaled back asap.  Time to write some letters and make some calls.  Scouts can't dictate what youth do outside of scouting, despite the overly Orwellian reach Scouts seems to want to get into the family. 

FWIW - I remember a training somewhere along the way.  It was very clearly said that when a group of scouts gets together, whether its an official meeting or not, is still a Scouting function.  It was designed to prevent 1) people circumventing the G2SS and 2) YPT violations.

I just don't recall the source now.  Perhaps someone else does.

[Oldscout448]

21 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

FWIW - I remember a training somewhere along the way.  It was very clearly said that when a group of scouts gets together, whether its an official meeting or not, is still a Scouting function.  It was designed to prevent 1) people circumventing the G2SS and 2) YPT violations.

I just don't recall the source now.  Perhaps someone else does.

So to play the lawyer here,  if scouts in the Panda patrol want to go on a  day hike but can't get( or just dont want) two adults to give up their Saturday and tag along.   All they need to do to keep the hike from being deemed a scouting hike is persuade a non scout to go along with them?         

[Gwaihir]

41 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

FWIW - I remember a training somewhere along the way.  It was very clearly said that when a group of scouts gets together, whether its an official meeting or not, is still a Scouting function.  It was designed to prevent 1) people circumventing the G2SS and 2) YPT violations.

I just don't recall the source now.  Perhaps someone else does.

yeah no.  That's not how life works.  I'd like to see that be upheld in a court of law.  So if 3 scouts from the patrol get together with 3 kids from the neighborhood, is that still a scout event?  that's BSA overreach and I really cannot see how that flies, at all. 

[ParkMan]

6 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

yeah no.  That's not how life works.  I'd like to see that be upheld in a court of law.  So if 3 scouts from the patrol get together with 3 kids from the neighborhood, is that still a scout event?  that's BSA overreach and I really cannot see how that flies, at all. 

There are of course practical limits.

Counterexample:

1) adults in a troop decide that they don't like the BSA rules on adult supervision.  They say "we'll call it a friend camping trip" and send the boys without supervision.  Something happens and a boy gets hurt.   Adults, CO, and BSA gets sued.

2) adults in a troop don't like the rules on swim tests.  They decide to hold a families camping trip.  A boy drowns.  Adults, CO, and BSA gets sued.

3) Scoutmaster invites scouts over to his house to earn extra money raking leaves.  Says it's ok because it's not a Scout function.  When done, he invites Scouts inside his house to hang out.  Is that Ok?

27 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

So to play the lawyer here,  if scouts in the Panda patrol want to go on a  day hike but can't get( or just dont want) two adults to give up their Saturday and tag along.   All they need to do to keep the hike from being deemed a scouting hike is persuade a non scout to go along with them?         

This is not ok.  The primary reason for those boys getting together is their affiliation in Scouting.

[Gwaihir]

50 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

There are of course practical limits.

Counterexample:

1) adults in a troop decide that they don't like the BSA rules on adult supervision.  They say "we'll call it a friend camping trip" and send the boys without supervision.  Something happens and a boy gets hurt.   Adults, CO, and BSA gets sued.

2) adults in a troop don't like the rules on swim tests.  They decide to hold a families camping trip.  A boy drowns.  Adults, CO, and BSA gets sued.

3) Scoutmaster invites scouts over to his house to earn extra money raking leaves.  Says it's ok because it's not a Scout function.  When done, he invites Scouts inside his house to hang out.  Is that Ok?

This is not ok.  The primary reason for those boys getting together is their affiliation in Scouting.

Is it ok?  Depends.  My kids go over the next door neighbors house all the time.  We've been neighbors for years, had BBQs together, etc.   This is basic social communal structure.  If my neighbor was now the scoutmaster, my son is forbidden from going over the neighbor's house to ask to get the ball that went over the fence, or to collect newspaper money or to get a drink of water because two deep leadership isn't present?     

Counter Counter point... my whole family is now in scouting... if we decide to go on a trip with another family who we're friends with and my kids are swimming... do they have to follow BSA guidelines because my wife and I are BSA leaders?  Better question, my whole family is in scouts thanks to Family scouting, and we go on a family camping trip and someone gets hurt, do we file an insurance claim with the BSA because we're all scouts?  

My kids are all cub scouts and the neighbor's kids are cub scouts.  They kids all play in the back yard one summer day and decide to have a water war, throwing water balloons at each other, shooting each other with water guns... is this a violation of G2SS since they're all Scouts? 

this whole discussion is evidence of litigation gone mad and the "safe space" movement Mike Rowe laments running wild on society.  I'm sorry, but if this is where Scouts is headed, that private interactions between families and friends who also happen to be in Scouting is now subject to all Scouting rules... Scout me out. 

 

And the primary reason for boys getting together is friendship, not their affiliation to Scouting.  Scouting was designed to put framework around friendship, friendship is first.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Gwaihir