Breaking Point

[Eagledad]

Yes, but there is a difference between playing the adult game of scouting and the scouting game of scouting. Growing and maturing is typically assumed as growing more character and more wiser, "as and adult". So let's be careful how we define the game.

Barry

[David CO]

1 hour ago, blw2 said:

It does seem like it's easy for so many adults to get caught up in 'playing the game'. 

I think BSA encourages it. Adults have more money than kids. 

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

I think BSA encourages it. Adults have more money than kids. 

Family scouting certainly will.

Barry

[David CO]

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

Family scouting certainly will.

Barry

That's why I think it is so important to have an active Chartered Organization to act as a buffer between BSA and the scouters. BSA is a business. They are only in this for money. They will locate and exploit vulnerabilities in scouts/scouters in order to take them for every penny they can.

 

[carebear3895]

On 5/28/2018 at 5:15 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

I worked with some professionals, who did some un-Scoutlike things. Some of them got promoted to regional and national staff.

*cough* Scoutreach *cough*

but boy isn't that the sad truth...We lose a lot of morally straight pros because of this. It's the never ending cycle 

[NJCubScouter]

12 hours ago, David CO said:

I enjoy watching the youngest grandkids playing in the sandbox. I will sometimes even come down to their level, to play in the sand with them and help them build their sandcastles. But let's be clear about this. I don't really get a kick out of playing with sand. I outgrew that about a half a century ago. I just like to spend some time with the grandkids.

Maybe your grandchildren don't like playing in the sand either, they just like playing with you, and they have figured out that if they play in the sand you will come out and watch, and eventually join them. 

12 hours ago, David CO said:

I feel the same way about scouting. I enjoy watching the boys play their game. I give my time to support them and help make them successful. It is their game, not mine. I outgrew the game with a purpose many, many years ago.

I think the adult leaders are part of the game, though not playing the game.  In a "D&D" type game we would be considered the "game master." (This is only a theory, which I just made up on the spot, and I know it is not a perfect analogy.  We are not making the rules (National does that) but we are "enforcing" the rules (including providing support and guidance) in a way that allows the boys to play the game properly.)

On the other hand, part of what we are supposed to be doing is setting a good example, so sometimes the line between "player" and "game master" begins to blur, and it may seem like we are playing the game ourselves.  As has been mentioned, some adults do take it too far.

56 minutes ago, David CO said:

That's why I think it is so important to have an active Chartered Organization to act as a buffer between BSA and the scouters. BSA is a business. They are only in this for money. They will locate and exploit vulnerabilities in scouts/scouters in order to take them for every penny they can.

I did not realize it was the role of the CO to be a "buffer" between National and unit Scouters, at least not on a day-to-day basis.  What page of what book is that on?

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, carebear3895 said:

*cough* Scoutreach *cough*

but boy isn't that the sad truth...We lose a lot of morally straight pros because of this. It's the never ending cycle 

Mixed emotions on Scoutreach programs. I've seen some very successful, and some that were non existant. One key ingrediant with successful Scoutreach programs: either a dedicated, program oriented parapro or volunteer driving the program. I started one such unit and it was successful. However when the SM left, it folded. Good friend of mine was a parapro working 4 units. Do not know how he did it, but they were awesome. But again when he left, those units folded.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Eagle94-A1

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Mixed emotions on Scoutreach programs. I've seen some very successful, and some that were non existant. One key ingrediant with successful Scoutreach programs: either a dedicated, program oriented parapro or volunteer driving the program. I started one such unit and it was successful. However when the SM left, it folded. Good friend of mine was a parapro working 4 units. Do not know how he did it, but they were awesome. But again when he left, those units folded.

I'm all for bringing Scouting to youth that need it.  However, It just seems that there are so many youth who could benefit from Scouting with less effort than Scoutreach takes.  I'd rather see the BSA focus on improving program delivery for their core audience before trying that harder play of branching out to other groups.

[Eagle94-A1]

Again, mixed emotions. My district has one troop that would be considered a "Scoutreach" unit elsewhere. The CO views Scouting not only as an outreach ministry, but also as a community service. The CO is in a rough part of town, and a lot of their Scouts are from the area. They got a great and active program for working with their Scouts, but it comes with a price.

One is that they are limited to the number of Scouts they can take aboard. Another is that they rely on 18- 20 year olds to meet the 2 deep leadership as some of their ASMs have health issues and cannot do overnight activities. A third is that they will no longer be able to do patrol activities without adults 21+ being present.

 

Not only the cost of Scouting, but the number of Scouters affects the number they can have max. And I have a feeling the number will be going down come October 1st when patrols are no longer able to do activities on their own and 18 to 20 year olds do not count towards YP standards. Yes they are heavily dependant on the Patrol Method and using their young ASMs who came up from the program. I see two community service projects, Memorial Day Weekend and Salvation Army Bell Ringing, being cancelled because they do these as patrols.

[Oldscout448]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

 

Not only the cost of Scouting, but the number of Scouters affects the number they can have max. And I have a feeling the number will be going down come October 1st when patrols are no longer able to do activities on their own and 18 to 20 year olds do not count towards YP standards. Yes they are heavily dependant on the Patrol Method and using their young ASMs who came up from the program. I see two community service projects, Memorial Day Weekend and Salvation Army Bell Ringing, being cancelled because they do these as patrols.

This seems antithetical to the very foundation and purpose upon which BSA was founded.     Scouts were supposed to actively look for ways to serve, and then do them.  Both individually and as patrols.  Not sit back and wait for the adults to determine and then supervise the operation.    Youth need to be allowed to take short flights before they leave the nest. They need to  learn that they can plan and accomplish things without the hovering presence of an adult.   The task of placing small flags on veterans graves is well within the ability of any patrol  to perform on their own.   By forcing them to  accept adult oversight we effectively remove a large portion of their sense of accomplishment and self-reliance 

Another point comes to mind.   There is a small park perhaps a quarter mile from where many of the scouts in my troop live.  They often walk there after school to play football, basketball, etc.   They have also met there on occasion as a patrol to teach scout skills to the new scouts, or practice a bit before the camporee.   Now must I tell them that National doesn't trust them to meet in the park where they have been playing for years without two adults watching them?   Assuming that they dont do what I would have done at age 16, which is to tell National to take a flying leap , how can I get two adults to take off work to watch them?   I have an ASM who could make it after school,  he is an Eagle, a Vigil, and taught IOLS last spring.  BUT he is only 20 so that's no good.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Oldscout448

[Terasec]

I am looking for alternatives everyday now

other orgs are swamped with request

nearest alternative to me is over an hour away

yet may join them anyway

2 breaking points for me

had discuss duty to god in a hallway where no one could hear us

even though we are an all boy pack our council camp is forcing us to integrate at camp all camp activities are coed

[Eagle94-A1]

16 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

This seems antithetical to the very foundation and purpose upon which BSA was founded.     Scouts were supposed to actively look for ways to serve, and then do them.  Both individually and as patrols.  Not sit back and wait for the adults to determine and then supervise the operation.    Youth need to be allowed to take short flights before they leave the nest. They need to  learn that they can plan and accomplish things without the hovering presence of an adult.   The task of placing small flags on veterans graves is well within the ability of any patrol  to perform on their own.   By forcing them to  accept adult oversight we effectively remove a large portion of their sense of accomplishment and self-reliance 

I bolded that because it is spot on. Either National is screwing up royally, is preparing for coed patrols. I have a feeling it is to prepare for coed patrols. Otherwise why do 18-20 year olds not count for YP purposes?

And I agree with you. I remember doing hikes as a patrol. I remember patrol meetings without adults. I remember doing my Eagle Project on my own with my fellow Scouts (OK mom was there b/c she drove me, and had snacks for us as we did the project. But she was not registered, and she stayed with the car). After October 1st, the Patrol Method as had been preached and practiced since 1907, an din the US since 1910, is effectively no more.

I am really hating "Family Scouting."

[Oldscout448]

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I bolded that because it is spot on. Either National is screwing up royally, is preparing for coed patrols. I have a feeling it is to prepare for coed patrols. Otherwise why do 18-20 year olds not count for YP purposes?

And I agree with you. I remember doing hikes as a patrol. I remember patrol meetings without adults. I remember doing my Eagle Project on my own with my fellow Scouts (OK mom was there b/c she drove me, and had snacks for us as we did the project. But she was not registered, and she stayed with the car). After October 1st, the Patrol Method as had been preached and practiced since 1907, an din the US since 1910, is effectively no more.

I am really hating "Family Scouting."

I remember doing a whole 50 miler  on the AT with no adults.   To be fair, the scouts were 15-17 years old

And another one at Philmont with an adult who was pretty much useless 

 

 

[blw2]

41 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

And another one at Philmont with an adult who was pretty much useless 

was he useless, or did he truly understand the patrol method and the idea we call boy lead?

[Terasec]

On 5/20/2018 at 8:43 AM, David CO said:

That is exactly what I don't want. Scouting is a game for boys.

I see it alot

scoutmaster pounding his chest over all his years of experience

look at me mentality

scoutmaster i prefer is lounging in his hammock unnoticed while the boys are out doing their thing