Breaking Point

[Chris1]

6 hours ago, FireStone said:

I personally have no issue with Wood Badge, the program, or the participants generally. My comment was more to do with specific people who focus on Wood Badge and similar adult recognition to the point where it seems be prioritized over youth elements of the program, and how that runs counter to my own views on Scouting.  

There we agree. 

[scotteg83]

25 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Interesting to me when I volunteer to instruct for IOLS, and the number of participants who have completed WB, but not IOLS. The most interesting thing was the WBers who had little skill or knowledge of the basics in IOLS, patrol method, etc... Some of my fellow IOLS instructors were surprised that I never did WB. 

Maybe I've been mislead, but I thought you had to be "trained" in your position before attending WoodBadge.  Which for a SM or ASM, to be considered "Trained", you must have IOLS?

[qwazse]

42 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

Maybe I've been mislead, but I thought you had to be "trained" in your position before attending WoodBadge.  Which for a SM or ASM, to be considered "Trained", you must have IOLS?

Lot's of folks get WB as cub leaders or district committee chairs. They wont ever take IOLS unless they become an SM/ASM ... if then.

[Buggie]

2 hours ago, scotteg83 said:

Maybe I've been mislead, but I thought you had to be "trained" in your position before attending WoodBadge.  Which for a SM or ASM, to be considered "Trained", you must have IOLS?

yah, I completed IOLS recently and there were a number of folks in there who had been in WB already. They were all from the cub scout side of the fence and crossing over as it were. I can't speak to their abilities as none of them were in my patrol so I didn't get a chance to know them all that well. I can say that they didn't have the basic scout craft down when it came time to demonstrate their knowledge. 

[cgail]

WB doesn't teach basic Scout craft.  The 21st century course is all about management and communication.  

 

That was a problem for several members of my course who were brand new Cub leaders.  They hadn't even had a chance to take BALOO yet, much less IOLS.

 

I wish it would teach more basic woodcraft - much like I've heard the "old" course described as.

[Buggie]

Completely agree on all your points @cgail. WB isn't scout craft and definitely IOLS is shorter now than it used to be. There's more to be taught than can be fit in the time allotted, even if you can stop a scouter from straying off topic. However I think they might be expecting us to pick it up either ourselves or with our troop. However in some troops, there's not a whole lot of experience going on. Some troops have it and apply it with different programs for the scouts to pick and choose what interests them (climbing, canoeing, backpacking, hiking etc). Other troops are a bit lean on the experience and get by with just camping. 

[Eagle94-A1]

I personally believe combining the Cub Scout Trainer Wood badge course and Boy Scouter Wood Badge course was a mistake. At one time WB was the pinacle of training, now not so much.

14 minutes ago, cgail said:

I wish it would teach more basic woodcraft - much like I've heard the "old" course described as.

 

Me too. Glad I took Bill's Brownsea 22 training for Scouts before it was discontinued.

[Chris1]

Wood badge is now about leadership management team development whether you like it or not. I think it is a good course so long as you're not expecting the Scout craft course. Most of the Scout crafts has been moved to introduction to outdoor leadership skills. Is there enough time in that course to cover everything? No. Should BSA introduce a intense scoutcraft course for adults? Maybe. Will enough adults take it? I have my doubts considering we can't get them i o l s for 24 hours when it is basic training.

For more Scouts skill courses I would suggest requesting them at your local University of scouting. Most councils have that once a year, a day-long training for adults.

 

[Jameson76]

8 hours ago, cgail said:

WB doesn't teach basic Scout craft.  The 21st century course is all about management and communication.  

That was a problem for several members of my course who were brand new Cub leaders.  They hadn't even had a chance to take BALOO yet, much less IOLS.

I wish it would teach more basic woodcraft - much like I've heard the "old" course described as.

  And the challenge is that sooo many Scouters take WB and assume they are now the end all be all when what needs to be conveyed is likely how to actually run a program, make sure they have a fun program, and know how to run a unit

6 minutes ago, Chris1 said:

Wood badge is now about leadership management team development whether you like it or not. I think it is a good course so long as you're not expecting the Scout craft course. Most of the Scout crafts has been moved to introduction to outdoor leadership skills. Is there enough time in that course to cover everything? No. Should BSA introduce a intense scoutcraft course for adults? Maybe. Will enough adults take it? I have my doubts considering we can't get them i o l s for 24 hours when it is basic training.

For more Scouts skill courses I would suggest requesting them at your local University of scouting. Most councils have that once a year, a day-long training for adults.

 

While leadership and management team development is important, not sure it is what the focus of the "premiere" BSA training course should be.  Really needs to be focused on what the heck to do outdoors, how to have a successful unit program, how to implement Boy Led units.

[Chris1]

They are currently revamping wood batch. So you may just get your wish but I kind of doubt it. Both outdoor skills and management and mentoring skills are required to run a good program.

Does would match put too much focus on one and not enough focus on the other? Maybe. That's up to personal opinion. But I'm not sure that a scoutmaster who knows every not every plant every animal and 38 ways to cook cactus but lacks the ability to Mentor Youth or understand team development or how to teach and interact with youth is up any more benefit to the scouts themselves.

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

  And the challenge is that sooo many Scouters take WB and assume they are now the end all be all when what needs to be conveyed is likely how to actually run a program, make sure they have a fun program, and know how to run a unit

While leadership and management team development is important, not sure it is what the focus of the "premiere" BSA training course should be.  Really needs to be focused on what the heck to do outdoors, how to have a successful unit program, how to implement Boy Led units.

The BSA training is absolutely lacking in the how to run unit department.  The primary training for unit leaders is:
- SM basic training
- Intro to Outdoor skills
- Leadership training

There is absolutely a series of classes needed around how to actually run a troop.  I can spout off the stages of team development in my sleep.  But, how to make patrols function in a meaningful way - nope.

[Eagle94-A1]

Once upon a time Boy Scouter Wood Badge DID focus on outdoor skills as well as program and leadership as opposed to management. It was program specific and was the end all be all training course. It put you into patrols for a week straight. You camped, you did classes, and you learned.

[Chris1]

11 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Once upon a time Boy Scouter Wood Badge DID focus on outdoor skills as well as program and leadership as opposed to management. It was program specific and was the end all be all training course....

There is no such thing as the "end all be all training course" in Scouting. The older course was good, but just had a DIFFERENT focus. Neither was perfect. 

[FormerProfessional]

4 hours ago, ParkMan said:

The BSA training is absolutely lacking in the how to run unit department.  The primary training for unit leaders is:
- SM basic training
- Intro to Outdoor skills
- Leadership training

There is absolutely a series of classes needed around how to actually run a troop.  I can spout off the stages of team development in my sleep.  But, how to make patrols function in a meaningful way - nope.

There is a reason for this...

A National Council employee, the current associate director of volunteer training for National BSA, never was a Cub or Boy Scout as a youth. This person doesn’t have sons, never had children in the program. Before their National Council position they served as a Learning for Life Executive and promoted to Field Director in charge of traditional units (Packs, Troops, and Crews)

So, the second in charge of training at National was never in Boy Scouting as a youth or adult volunteer and was not a traditional unit serving executive.

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by FormerProfessional

[MattR]

I talked to a guy in town that took wb from Hillcourt. Each patrol made and led games that taught outdoor skills. That was the program - fun with a purpose. That would have been a great course.