Breaking Point

[RememberSchiff]

@jsychk welcome to scouter.com 

[qwazse]

10 hours ago, jsychk said:

As a scout mom of 7 years, I am against girls joining the BOY Scout of America. If they like BS's program so much, they should advocate GS to follow it. ... We will give up everything for the Eagle and go to Trail Life USA. After all, I just want my boys to have some fun memories that they can look back and smile.

@jsychk, welcome! And thanks for all you do for our boys. I've heard lots of positives about TLUSA from boots-on-the-ground. Their professional leadership -- some of them former BSA pros and well-versed in competitive marketing -- has allowed doublespeak to promulgate without retraction (latest example: allowing the implication of a "two week sex party" in reference to the World Scout Jamboree to stand). The world needs more good scouters who will stand up for one another, even across organizational boundaries. Like in "good old days" when boy scouts and girl scouts or campfire girls (at lest in these parts) camped together from time to time.

Tip from an old fart: If you all are in it for the Eagle, move on sooner rather than later. The national recognition that comes with all the hype is simply not worth it. Whatever club your boys join, challenge them, "If you never earn the recognition that they offer, will you still be happy you joined?" That's the first sign that they're gonna garner fun memories!

[carebear3895]

10 hours ago, jsychk said:

As a cub scout leader of 5 years, I am against girls joining the CUB Scout. It's hard enough to recruit volunteers because fewer dads step to the plate now. Also, the more the moms volunteer, the more the Pack looks like daycare. Adding the girls will make it like GS. It's truly ridiculous to have girls in different ranks but the same den. Each rank has its own achievements to accomplish so how do they design and run the den meetings by how many den leaders they need? 

You capitalize "Cub" like that word supposed to be gender specific or something...

Just FYI, most of the packs in my district are in rural farm communities. Most of these packs have a hard time just finding 5 boys, never mind 5 in the same grade. BSA had materials for years to help Cubmasters and Den leaders deal with this situation. This is not a problem caused by including girls.  

I don't want to jump down this rabbit hole, but I highly suggest you talk to you Son(s) about what is happening and get their honest opinion. Especially if you are suggesting ruining their opportunity to earn the Eagle rank to join an organization that gives far less opportunities to make those memories 

Edited August 22, 2018 by carebear3895

[HashTagScouts]

5 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

You capitalize "Cub" like that word supposed to be gender specific or something...

I don't want to jump down this rabbit hole, but I highly suggest you talk to you Son(s) about what is happening and get their honest opinion. Especially if you are suggesting ruining their opportunity to earn the Eagle rank to join an organization with far less opportunities. 

THIS bothers me! As a paid pro, DO NOT worry yourself with promoting what happens after a youth leaves the program, spend more of your time focusing on what happens while the youth is in the program- that is what really matters.  A kid earning Eagle is a great accomplishment, but if it what the organization uses to measure the success of the program itself, we have a major problem that can only be fixed by shutting the program down.  As a paid pro, I would expect you have far more training than we as volunteers do on the mission and aims and methods of Scouting, and should well know advancement is not in the mission, and it is only one of the methods.  I aged out as a Life for Life, and I do not regret the time I spent in Scouting as a youth, or as an adult.  There are far more of us in the adult leadership role that are not Eagle than those that are, so choose your words more carefully next time.

[Saltface]

14 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

Especially if you are suggesting ruining their opportunity to earn the Eagle rank to join an organization that gives far less opportunities to make those memories 

Why would Trail Life give them fewer opportunities to make memories?

[Cambridgeskip]

7 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Why would Trail Life give them fewer opportunities to make memories?

I'd suggest that the larger scale of BSA/WOSM lends itself to being able to access more events at a regional/national/international level. From what I have heard of Trail Life the more week to week stuff is perfectly capable of looking like a regular scout troop. What its members may miss out on are those opportunities to mix and meet those from a wider area.

It's a long way from the be all and end all of what BSA offers certainly, but it is something that is missing.

[qwazse]

Wow! Folks are a bit on edge. Remember, that chances are that by virtue of being scouters we would probably enjoy each others company around a campfire.

The truth is, a troop/pack who never worked with young women before (be they tag-alongs, venturers, rogue GS/USA troops, etc ...) may disappoint parents who thought that was the unit's best feature for their boy(s). Parents had some frank conversations with me last year over this very hypothetical ... and our boys have been exposed to venturers and female scouts from abroad, attended weekend camps with girl scouts, etc ...

What looks to some of us like a long climb, looks to others like a slippery slope.

As to 'Skip's reference about big-ticket scouting, keep in mind that Jamborees are attended by <2% of registered scouts, HA's by <5%. There are scads of other youth conventions in the country -- especially Christian ones that would appeal to TLUSA -- and some of those have worldwide gatherings.

[Saltface]

Just now, Cambridgeskip said:

I'd suggest that the larger scale of BSA/WOSM lends itself to being able to access more events at a regional/national/international level. From what I have heard of Trail Life the more week to week stuff is perfectly capable of looking like a regular scout troop. What its members may miss out on are those opportunities to mix and meet those from a wider area.

It's a long way from the be all and end all of what BSA offers certainly, but it is something that is missing.

Meh. You don't need Philmont to go backpacking, Sea Base to go sailing, or Bechtel Summit to visit Disneyland.

The Scouts in my troop are becoming more and more antagonistic toward the idea of any combined BSA event. After our last summer camp, they resolved to never attend a council camp again. When I reminded our PLC of an upcoming district camporee (which I was looking forward to), it was quickly voted down and replaced by a backpacking overnighter. Meeting other Scouts looks to be pretty low on their list of priorities.

Judging by our campfire conversations, their best memories are all events that we did separate from other troops.

[Eagledad]

I find National to be the big question. They seem to have bungled this enough that who knows what's next. It's almost as if they are sitting and waiting to finish development of the program with reactions to the volunteers hurdles. 

Barry

[Cambridgeskip]

1 hour ago, Saltface said:

Meh. You don't need Philmont to go backpacking, Sea Base to go sailing, or Bechtel Summit to visit Disneyland.

The Scouts in my troop are becoming more and more antagonistic toward the idea of any combined BSA event. After our last summer camp, they resolved to never attend a council camp again. When I reminded our PLC of an upcoming district camporee (which I was looking forward to), it was quickly voted down and replaced by a backpacking overnighter. Meeting other Scouts looks to be pretty low on their list of priorities.

Judging by our campfire conversations, their best memories are all events that we did separate from other troops.

Whatever the attitude of your particular troop the fact remains that going to a much smaller organisation does, by definitition, reduce the opportunities to go on the national and international events.

My troop love the events where they mix with scouts from elsewhere. They don't want to do it everytime by any means but there's a PLC on 3 Sept. I know that the first thing they'll put on the program is Winter Camp. Winter Camp is a weekend jamboree style camp at Gilwell every January. For me it's a nightmare. It's normally a total mudbath and the logistics are hardwork, getting 3000 people on and site. But the scouts love it. The program is an absolute hoot and on top that we normally camp as part of a district contingent so they mix and mingle with scouts they've never met before. They always come home with new friends.

Horses for courses I guess.

[Cambridgeskip]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

 

As to 'Skip's reference about big-ticket scouting, keep in mind that Jamborees are attended by <2% of registered scouts, HA's by <5%. There are scads of other youth conventions in the country -- especially Christian ones that would appeal to TLUSA -- and some of those have worldwide gatherings.

It's not just about big ticket events though.

I also mean that summer camp where you make friends with someone from 50 or 100 miles away. Or you go on your own to a specific course with scouts from all over the place. Or you develop that fun rivalry with the neighbouring troop from across town.

All things that are just easier and more common in a large organisation.

It's not the only reason of course to chose an organisation. It;s in response to someone asking what opportunities someone might miss out on.

[qwazse]

1 minute ago, carebear3895 said:

..  an organization with far less opportunities. 

@carebear3895, ground truth: which group has opportunities varies by location and has nothing to do with a nationally recognized rank. BSA lost two of my young relatives because their SM refused to make good on the promise of scouting by overriding youth leadership frequently and often, and scheduled outings as a second priority to MB weekends. The boys visited TLUSA which seemed to be enjoyable, but there were other problems ... specifically, I don't think their sisters would ever be invited on activities. (Pity, because one can start a fire in a rainstorm with natural materials. Good to have around.)

National rules about air-soft battles and height limits on pioneering towers didn't help.