Terasec Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 14 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said: I don’t agree with them extending G2SS to interactions with scouts outside of scouting unless that is your only relationship with that youth. Even then, I would have to probably used different language. Something like, “G2SS is a great way to ensure youth safety and we recommend following it with scouts outside of scouting events. If you have an activity with scouts that you would like to violate G2SS, don’t be cute and call it non-scouting... as we will find out and hunt you down. If you happen to be family friends with the scout (or have other non scout non weird relationship with them) G2SS is only a recommendation but feel free to have a beer while showing them how to shoot a bottle with a 22 over a lake at dusk.” Ok, I’m not a lawyer but something along those lines.... I was discussing this with other leaders they didnt quite understand the implications of expanding gtss beyond scouting events And they way its worded doesnt just apply to no one on one rule wording indicates all ytp rules apply outside of scouting which just isnt practical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 21 hours ago, Eagledad said: Patrol method "requires" an attitude of space i like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 10 hours ago, CalicoPenn said: Just a quick note - this is already effective - no waiting until October. The Guide to Safe Scouting is updated online quarterly and this sentence (without the effective date modifier) is already in there. Another example of BSA's literature not being consistent and/or lack of understanding, program experience, or ignorance. And probably bot., The printable G2SS PDF published prior to May 3rd 2018 had no "Effective October 1st" disclaimer. When it was first posted here, there were concerns about summer experiences, i.e. summer camp, Philmont, etc in which plans were made using the 18-20 year olds for YP compliance. Making a major change with no advance notice is a serious problem. I know one poster commented that he was contacting Philmont to see if this would affect his crew or not. And I know at RT, the SMs present were hot under the collar, to put it mildly, since several troops were relying on 18-20s to meet YP requirements at summer camp.So I bet councils, as well as national got an earful about these new, essentially last minute rule changes. As noted in the G2SS pdf, the online version is updated quarterly, implying that it is the most current version. Plus BSA announced that the new G2SS pdf was being published prior to the online update.Since the Online version of G2SS is acknowledged by paper version as the most up to date version, and since the online version states https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/ Adult Supervision (Effective October 1, 2018) (Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader over 21 must be present for any activity involving female youth. Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age- and program-appropriate supervision must always be provided. All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive. One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both inside and outside of Scouting. (Italics and undelining added) It is safe to say someone got a dose of common sense, and is giving us 5 months to adjust. I know some units are having some discussions on this because this change is major, discourages the Patrol Method as originally envisioned by our founders and implemented by them, and they do not have enough healthy over 21 year old adults and rely heavily on their 18-20 year old ASMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 21 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said: In my neck of the woods, the majority of troops DO ALLOW patrols to do their own day activities without adults. My troop has allowed patrols to meet on their own and do stuff without Scouters present. this was in response to one of my comments.... I should qualify that my experience wasn't necessarily that the forbid the practice. It just wasn't on anyone's radar. Patrols doing things on their own just was not encouraged (with the exception of huddling up in one of the corners of the room during a troop mtg to brainstorm the menu). when I mentioned it I often thought I had something between my teeth based on the look I got. I doubt if most of the scouts had ever even considered the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 17 hours ago, Oldscout448 said: Somebody please stop me if I'm wrong here. But, I was told back in the dark ages, that the whole point of spending all this time and effort learning woodcraft skills was so that we as scouts could go hiking and camping on our own. " but what is they get hurt,lost, or stung? What if they meet a skunk? What if it rains,snows, or hails? So we learned first aid, map and compass, the north star, how to tell poison ivy from Virginia creeper, how to light a fire in the rain, take care of our mates, tie knots in the dark, to suck it up and keep going when we hit a bump in the road. It wasn't to get badges as much as it was to be trusted to go out on our own. As boys growing into men that is what we yearned for. To have short bursts of being on our own . They gradually got longer and longer as we proved we could be trusted . Until when we said that we where going on a 5 day hike the only question the parents asked was " When and where do you need to be picked up?" They were treating us like adults because we had been acting like adults. That is what scouting was . For me, my best mates ,and my sons, but I greatly fear not my grandson. and that is what I am mourning the loss of I agree with others, this is well said....on one aspect of scouting.... the surface one. Preparing for life in the tangible sense.... another, more primary point of learning the woodcraft, wasn't the skill itself.... it was more about capitalizing, I think, on something the boys enjoyed doing to gain all sorts of covert opportunities to build positive character, confidence, independence, teamwork, etc... 14 hours ago, ParkMan said: I'll admit - I had the wind taken out of my sails when I realized why the new rules. I'm still very optimistic that we can find a way to work with the new adult requirement. Just because adults are there doesn't mean that patrols can't work. Adults close by, but not part of the conersations - that kind of thing. I totally agree with your look on the positive side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 40 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said: Another example of BSA's literature not being consistent and/or lack of understanding, program experience, or ignorance. And probably bot., The printable G2SS PDF published prior to May 3rd 2018 had no "Effective October 1st" disclaimer. When it was first posted here, there were concerns about summer experiences, i.e. summer camp, Philmont, etc in which plans were made using the 18-20 year olds for YP compliance. Making a major change with no advance notice is a serious problem. I know one poster commented that he was contacting Philmont to see if this would affect his crew or not. And I know at RT, the SMs present were hot under the collar, to put it mildly, since several troops were relying on 18-20s to meet YP requirements at summer camp.So I bet councils, as well as national got an earful about these new, essentially last minute rule changes. As noted in the G2SS pdf, the online version is updated quarterly, implying that it is the most current version. Plus BSA announced that the new G2SS pdf was being published prior to the online update.Since the Online version of G2SS is acknowledged by paper version as the most up to date version, and since the online version states https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/ Adult Supervision (Effective October 1, 2018) (Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader over 21 must be present for any activity involving female youth. Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age- and program-appropriate supervision must always be provided. All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive. One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both inside and outside of Scouting. (Italics and undelining added) It is safe to say someone got a dose of common sense, and is giving us 5 months to adjust. I know some units are having some discussions on this because this change is major, discourages the Patrol Method as originally envisioned by our founders and implemented by them, and they do not have enough healthy over 21 year old adults and rely heavily on their 18-20 year old ASMs That's not the actual G2SS that you're quoting - it's a summary put out by National. The actual G2SS does not contain the "effective October 1, 2018) language - and that's the version that BSA legal counsel will use if anything happens that they need to defend the BSA over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said: That's not the actual G2SS that you're quoting - it's a summary put out by National. The actual G2SS does not contain the "effective October 1, 2018) language - and that's the version that BSA legal counsel will use if anything happens that they need to defend the BSA over. Actually I am quoting the onlive version of the G2SS as the screen capture below shows. This is where I think it will be a battle of the lawyers. if you go the Guide to Safe Scouting Website, https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/ It states the following: Download the print-friendly version here. This is the full PDF version that contains updates as of May 2018. Please refer to the online version for the most updated information. [emphasis added Viewing the online Guide The online version of Guide to Safe Scouting is available here. When you click the link to the online version, https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/toc/ it gives you a summary of the updates AND a table of contents withlinks to individual sections See below for image. When you click on Youth Protection and Adlut Leadership link, it takes you to this webpage, https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/ On that webpage its what I quoted, i.e the Effective October 1st provision. So, one set of lawyers may try to use the pdf, but another set of lawyers can show that the pdf not only has links to the online version, but also states the online version is updated quarterly, and is more current than the pdf. Edited June 13, 2018 by Eagle94-A1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashTagScouts Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 I'll throw this out for discussion around the campfire- what does this mean for Merit Badge Counselors? Are they now supposed to have to registered leaders age 21+ present with them whenever they are meeting with a scout (assuming that the MBC isn't also registered as an adult leader and are 21+ themselves)? And I roll this out for you too- are MBCs considered "adult leaders"? I can't say there is anything definitive in any guidelines that would indicate a resounding yes on that. Registered adult, yes- registered leader, no. SM/ASM, COR and TC are registered leaders in my mind. I am seeing that push from units as a means of getting adults "registered" to meet these guidelines, without having to have them pay fees. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 I'm not watching this subject all that close since I'm out of the program now, but you guys are painting a scary picture that would not have worked well in our troop. The program is starting to look more like a cross between Webelos III and YMCA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said: I'll throw this out for discussion around the campfire- what does this mean for Merit Badge Counselors? Are they now supposed to have to registered leaders age 21+ present with them whenever they are meeting with a scout (assuming that the MBC isn't also registered as an adult leader and are 21+ themselves)? And I roll this out for you too- are MBCs considered "adult leaders"? I can't say there is anything definitive in any guidelines that would indicate a resounding yes on that. Registered adult, yes- registered leader, no. SM/ASM, COR and TC are registered leaders in my mind. I am seeing that push from units as a means of getting adults "registered" to meet these guidelines, without having to have them pay fees. GOOD QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My understanding, stressing UNDERSTANDING, is that because MBCs are registered with the BSA and undergo the CBC and must do YPT, they are considered "leaders" and are good to go. I know someone commented when the new YP rules came out that they contacted their summer camp about a parent who was also a MBC, and if they met criteria. Camp said this year yes, but 'always in motion the future is." As for now requiring a 2nd Scouter over 21, or 2 Scouters over 21 if the MBC is under 21( just thought of that issue too) I do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said: Actually I am quoting the onlive version of the G2SS as the screen capture below shows. This is where I think it will be a battle of the lawyers. if you go the Guide to Safe Scouting Website, https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/ It states the following: Download the print-friendly version here. This is the full PDF version that contains updates as of May 2018. Please refer to the online version for the most updated information. [emphasis added Viewing the online Guide The online version of Guide to Safe Scouting is available here. When you click the link to the online version, https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/toc/ it gives you a summary of the updates AND a table of contents withlinks to individual sections See below for image. When you click on Youth Protection and Adlut Leadership link, it takes you to this webpage, https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/ On that webpage its what I quoted, i.e the Effective October 1st provision. So, one set of lawyers may try to use the pdf, but another set of lawyers can show that the pdf not only has links to the online version, but also states the online version is updated quarterly, and is more current than the pdf. You're right - its not the online version that I was looking at - it's the print version which says this: Adult Supervision Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader over 21 must be present for any activity involving female youth. Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age- and program-appropriate supervision must always be provided. All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_in_CA Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) This was my main concern about adding girls to the mix (something in the abstract that I support) - that given our fear driven society, the YPT and GTSS changes would be over the top and get in the way. I guess my fear is coming true. Sigh... Edited June 13, 2018 by Rick_in_CA 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said: GOOD QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My understanding, stressing UNDERSTANDING, is that because MBCs are registered with the BSA and undergo the CBC and must do YPT, they are considered "leaders" and are good to go. I know someone commented when the new YP rules came out that they contacted their summer camp about a parent who was also a MBC, and if they met criteria. Camp said this year yes, but 'always in motion the future is." As for now requiring a 2nd Scouter over 21, or 2 Scouters over 21 if the MBC is under 21( just thought of that issue too) I do not know. Or do MBCs get a pass under the personal-conference clause: Quote One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both inside and outside of Scouting. In situations requiring a personal conference, the meeting is to be conducted with the knowledge and in view of other adults and/or youth. Private online communications (texting, phone calls, chat, IM, etc.) must include another registered leader or parent. Communication by way of social media (Facebook, Snapchat, etc.) must include another registered leader or parent. So, if it's a "meeting" with a MBC then two over 21 registered adults are required. But, if it's a personal conference then you only need someone with "knowledge" of why the meeting is happening and be "in view of other adults and/or youth." The latter would suggest a MBC could counsel a scout at the local library as long as the librarian knows why you're there and can see you both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, CalicoPenn said: You're right - its not the online version that I was looking at - it's the print version which says this: Adult Supervision Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader over 21 must be present for any activity involving female youth. Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age- and program-appropriate supervision must always be provided. All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive. Dontcha love BSA communications A month old paper document is already out of date. At least it isn't as bad as the new CS handbooks. Unless someone screwed up the document released yesterday. The doucment published yesterday shows the Cub Scout Ranks Diamond has been reordered. Bobcat is in the Tiger/Webelos Spot, Tiger is in teh Wolf spot, and Wolf is in the Bobcat spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said: The doucment published yesterday shows the Cub Scout Ranks Diamond has been reordered. Bobcat is in the Tiger/Webelos Spot, Tiger is in teh Wolf spot, and Wolf is in the Bobcat spot. Where does the Lion badge go? No, not THAT Lion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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