Breaking Point

[Oldscout448]

7 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'll admit - I had the wind taken out of my sails when I realized why the new rules.

I'm still very optimistic that we can find a way to work with the new adult requirement.  Just because adults are there doesn't mean that patrols can't work.  Adults close by, but not part of the conersations - that kind of thing.

I truly wish I shared your optimism.   The best ( or worse) way I see right now is to just ignore the stupid rules.   But then would I be following the seventh point of the scout law?  No, could  I argue that I am following the second? Maybe.      I have no clear answer as of yet.

[MattR]

4 hours ago, Kryten said:

all adult registered leaders must follow the G2SS outside of scouting.

Really? So no going to a bar anymore? I would have lost all of my ASMs.

Is this rule documented somewhere?

[JoeBob]

14 pages and nobody has said it yet.  Why do I always have to be the one to put green bamboo sections in the fire?  They're turning up the heat slowly:

2018:

 (Effective October 1, 2018) Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.

2020, after going co-ed:

 (Effective October 1, 2020) Two registered adult chaperones 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.

[Eagle94-A1]

On 6/5/2018 at 3:41 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

I bolded that because it is spot on. Either National is screwing up royally, is preparing for coed patrols. I have a feeling it is to prepare for coed patrols. Otherwise why do 18-20 year olds not count for YP purposes?

I think I beat ya to it , @JoeBob and they want people registered so they can get money, not just be a chaperone. :)-

Seriously though. @fred johnson started a thread stating what has been said in my neck of the woods since before "Linked troops" was even mentioned: "Separate but Equal" and "Linked Troops" is just a step towards coed.

 

 

[Kryten]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Really? So no going to a bar anymore? I would have lost all of my ASMs.

Is this rule documented somewhere?

its in the new update to G2SS  Barriers to abuse last sentence

Scouting’s Barriers to Abuse

The BSA has adopted the following policies for the safety and well-being of its members. These policies primarily protect youth members; however, they also serve to protect adult leaders. All parents and caregivers should understand that our leaders are to abide by these safeguards. Parents and youth are strongly encouraged to use these safeguards outside the Scouting program. Registered leaders must follow these guidelines with all Scouting youth outside of Scouting activities.

[MattR]

11 minutes ago, Kryten said:

its in the new update to G2SS  Barriers to abuse last sentence

Well, I promise not to shoot the messenger. Thanks.

[Oldscout448]

Well that's good.  A moderator shooting a junior member!  just think of all the paperwork !  Yikes

[CalicoPenn]

6 hours ago, Kryten said:

 

all adult registered leaders must follow the G2SS outside of scouting.

 

This is not a complete sentence - it is missing the part that says "with all Scouting youth."

The actual sentence reads:  "Registered leaders must follow these guideline with a Scouting youth outside of Scouting activities".

[CalicoPenn]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

Really? So no going to a bar anymore? I would have lost all of my ASMs.

Is this rule documented somewhere?

Only if you were planning to bring along any Scouting youth.

[CalicoPenn]

1 hour ago, JoeBob said:

 

2018:

 (Effective October 1, 2018) Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.

 

Just a quick note - this is already effective - no waiting until October.  The Guide to Safe Scouting is updated online quarterly and this sentence (without the effective date modifier) is already in there.

[Eagle1993]

8 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

This is not a complete sentence - it is missing the part that says "with all Scouting youth."

The actual sentence reads:  "Registered leaders must follow these guideline with a Scouting youth outside of Scouting activities".

I understand what they are getting at. Some pedophile adult leader says the 1 on 1 contact with a scout youth was at a non scouting event so it doesn’t count as a YPT violation.  The problem I have is that when they expand G2SS so much and add so many rules it makes it very difficult to run a unit (especially smaller ones).  You will have two scenarios.  

One... leaders start ignoring G2SS completely as it has become the equivalent of the 4 pages of warnings in your lawnmower engine manual.  They may refer to a few sections for guidance but don’t take the book to heart.

Two...leaders follow it to the letter of the law.  Trips and meetings are cancelled due to insufficient leadership.   Leaders drop out as they feel their life outside of scouting is now being monitored.  Etc.

Neither makes scouting safer but it does help give Nationals an out in any possible mishap that could occur.   

[ParkMan]

21 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I understand what they are getting at. Some pedophile adult leader says the 1 on 1 contact with a scout youth was at a non scouting event so it doesn’t count as a YPT violation.  The problem I have is that when they expand G2SS so much and add so many rules it makes it very difficult to run a unit (especially smaller ones).  You will have two scenarios.  

One... leaders start ignoring G2SS completely as it has become the equivalent of the 4 pages of warnings in your lawnmower engine manual.  They may refer to a few sections for guidance but don’t take the book to heart.

Two...leaders follow it to the letter of the law.  Trips and meetings are cancelled due to insufficient leadership.   Leaders drop out as they feel their life outside of scouting is now being monitored.  Etc.

Neither makes scouting safer but it does help give Nationals an out in any possible mishap that could occur.   

I'm wondering if the newer leadership is trying to take a more aggressive stance here.  The new, very somber YPT.  Increased rules in the G2SS.  This new clause on following the G2SS outside of scouting. 

It's tough for me to tell if we're at a tipping point.  My GSUSA friends tell me their rules and requirements are tougher.  It doesn't seem to hurt them much.  

[MattR]

1 hour ago, CalicoPenn said:

Only if you were planning to bring along any Scouting youth.

My son is a scouting youth. Does this mean I can't have a beer while eating dinner with him? Okay, that's a bit far fetched. How about this scenario. Two families, both in scouts, get together for a BBQ. Again, there's beer. Is this a violation? Or a parent offers to pick up the scout son from soccer practice of another parent that is sick.

I know what the likely scenario is they're after. A troop wants to do something that's not in the G2SS and so calls it a non scouting event. But that's not what the new rule says.

[Rick_in_CA]

21 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I understand what they are getting at. Some pedophile adult leader says the 1 on 1 contact with a scout youth was at a non scouting event so it doesn’t count as a YPT violation.  The problem I have is that when they expand G2SS so much and add so many rules it makes it very difficult to run a unit (especially smaller ones).  You will have two scenarios.  

One... leaders start ignoring G2SS completely as it has become the equivalent of the 4 pages of warnings in your lawnmower engine manual.  They may refer to a few sections for guidance but don’t take the book to heart.

Two...leaders follow it to the letter of the law.  Trips and meetings are cancelled due to insufficient leadership.   Leaders drop out as they feel their life outside of scouting is now being monitored.  Etc.

Neither makes scouting safer but it does help give Nationals an out in any possible mishap that could occur.   

The problem I have with the no one-on-one contact outside of scouting rule is that for me, it would have been a problem. I often transport my pretend nephew (I'm not actually family, but I am a very close family friend) to soccer practice and other things one-on-one. He is no longer a scout (he lost interest), but if he was, I would have to decide to either ignore the rule, our not be a leader anymore.

[Eagle1993]

7 hours ago, Rick_in_CA said:

The problem I have with the no one-on-one contact outside of scouting rule is that for me, it would have been a problem. I often transport my pretend nephew (I'm not actually family, but I am a very close family friend) to soccer practice and other things one-on-one. He is no longer a scout (he lost interest), but if he was, I would have to decide to either ignore the rule, our not be a leader anymore.

I don’t agree with them extending G2SS to interactions with scouts outside of scouting unless that is your only relationship with that youth.  

Even then, I would have to probably used different language.  Something like, “G2SS is a great way to ensure youth safety and we recommend following it with scouts outside of scouting events.  If you have an activity with scouts that you would like to violate G2SS, don’t be cute and call it non-scouting... as we will find out and hunt you down.  If you happen to be family friends with the scout (or have other non scout non weird relationship with them) G2SS is only a recommendation but feel free to have a beer while showing them how to shoot a bottle with a 22 over a lake at dusk.”  Ok, I’m not a lawyer but something along those lines....