Breaking Point

[Oldscout448]

Somebody please stop me if I'm wrong here.   

But,  I was told back in the dark ages,   that the whole point of spending all this time and effort learning woodcraft skills was so that we as scouts could go hiking and camping on our own.

         " but what is they get hurt,lost, or stung?   What if they meet a skunk?   What if it rains,snows, or hails?  

          So we learned first aid, map and compass, the north star,  how to tell poison ivy from Virginia creeper,  how to light a fire in the rain,  take care of our mates, tie                      knots in the dark, to suck it up  and keep going when we hit a bump in the road.

         It wasn't to get badges as much as it was to be trusted to go out on our own.

        As boys growing into men that is what we yearned for.    To have short bursts of being on our own . They gradually got longer and longer as we proved we could be            trusted .

        Until when we said that we where going on a 5 day hike the only question the parents asked was " When and where do you need to be picked up?"   They were                        treating us like adults

        because we had been acting like adults.  

That is what scouting was .   For me, my  best mates ,and my sons,  but I greatly fear not my grandson.  and that is what I am mourning the loss of

        

        

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Oldscout448

[NJCubScouter]

26 minutes ago, Kryten said:

I might be wrong, but i think the BSA is self insured.

I think you are correct, but that still means there is a risk management person(s) somewhere deciding how large the self-insurance fund needs to be, and I am sure that amount is correlated to the perceived total risk - which is affected by issues like the ones we are discussing.  I am sure the bigwigs at National would much rather be using as much as possible of that self-insurance fund for other crucial needs - like their own already-inflated salaries.  (Hey, who took that cheap shot?  He ran away so fast, I didn't see his face...)hInEAgency@gmail.com

(I am ignoring the part about the lawyers, since I am one of those.    )

Edited June 12, 2018 by NJCubScouter

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Terasec said:

everyones an angel when mom and dads around

Don't I wish.

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, Kryten said:

but it will.

i have a small troop

where am i to get the all the adult leaders from to make it work? i can no longer use the 18 to 20  ASM'S . (no longer  count for 2 deep leadership)

most patrol activities and meetings happen during the week  when leaders are working.

i

 

 

 

That is one of my other concerns- are we now going to see more youth age out and not stick around, feeling they are no longer a scout, but also now not a scouter...

[Kryten]

27 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Somebody please stop me if I'm wrong here.   

But,  I was told back in the dark ages,   that the whole point of spending all this time and effort learning woodcraft skills was so that we as scouts could go hiking and camping on our own.

         " but what is they get hurt,lost, or stung?   What if they meet a skunk?   What if it rains,snows, or hails?  

          So we learned first aid, map and compass, the north star,  how to tell poison ivy from Virginia creeper,  how to light a fire in the rain,  take care of our mates, tie                      knots in the dark, to suck it up  and keep going when we hit a bump in the road.

         It wasn't to get badges as much as it was to be trusted to go out on our own.

        As boys growing into men that is what we yearned for.    To have short bursts of being on our own . They gradually got longer and longer as we proved we could be            trusted .

        Until when we said that we where going on a 5 day hike the only question the parents asked was " When and where do you need to be picked up?"   They were                        treating us like adults

        because we had been acting like adults.  

That is what scouting was .   For me, my  best mates ,and my sons,  but I greatly fear not my grandson.  and that is what I am mourning the loss of

        

        

 

 

 

Well said. my thoughts exactly.

this is the type of scouting my  scouts want. I enabled them to do it(with a lot of parent and leader push back).  but now  with these changes thier program will suffer.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Kryten
update

[WonderBoy]

1 minute ago, HashTagScouts said:

That is one of my other concerns- are we now going to see more youth age out and not stick around, feeling they are no longer a scout, but also now not a scouter...

18-20 year old ASMs are about to effectively become JASMs... except they can't be by themselves around youth under 18. Sigh...

[HashTagScouts]

Just now, WonderBoy said:

18-20 year old ASMs are about to effectively become JASMs... except they can't be by themselves around youth under 18. Sigh...

And I am sure I am not alone with the difficulty today of trying to get the 18-20 year olds to understand they can't just go and "hang" with their buds from the troop who are still under 18.  Now we'll have the additional challenge that they can't go and hang with just another 18-20 year old present, they need to have the old timers there too.

[NJCubScouter]

20 minutes ago, WonderBoy said:

18-20 year old ASMs are about to effectively become JASMs...

Can you explain that?  Apparently I haven't been paying close enough attention recently... including to some of things posted in this forum, it would appear.

[HashTagScouts]

5 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Can you explain that?  Apparently I haven't been paying close enough attention recently... including to some of things posted in this forum, it would appear.

The new G2SS (the October 2018 version) states that two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, which includes any "meeting".    The guidelines we operate under today where YPT is required, only one of the adults needs to be 21 or over.

[Oldscout448]

34 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

And I am sure I am not alone with the difficulty today of trying to get the 18-20 year olds to understand they can't just go and "hang" with their buds from the troop who are still under 18.  Now we'll have the additional challenge that they can't go and hang with just another 18-20 year old present, they need to have the old timers there too.

if they are adults ( over 18)  I would think they can hang with another adult even if by the new regs. they are not allowed to supervise the under 18 crowd 

[NJCubScouter]

10 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

The new G2SS (the October 2018 version) states that two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, which includes any "meeting".    The guidelines we operate under today where YPT is required, only one of the adults needs to be 21 or over.

Thanks.  I knew the second sentence.  I must have missed the change mentioned in the first sentence.  That's not good.  And I don't get it.  An 18-year-old is an adult.  I can understand the BSA wanticng at least one person who is a little older, but I don't get the reason for both.  And having had three children go through those ages, and having observed some 18-20-year-old ASM's, I really don't think that a typical 21-year-old is leaps-and-bounds more mature than a typicael 18-year-old.  Sometimes, not more mature at all.

So this means you can still have an 18 year old ASM, and they count as adults for the no one-on-one rule and no-sharing-tents rule, but they don't count as adults for the two-deep rule?  Is that basically it?  Now I see WonderBoy's point:  They actually will be LESS useful than a JASM, because they have turned 18.

It also appears to mean that it is pointless to have an 18-20 year old Assistant Den Leader.  I have never actually seen one of those, but when I was a Den Leader and my oldest daughter was in that age range, I got her to consider being my ADL.  She decided against it, but I am sure it happens, somewhere.  Before October 2018.  It will still be possible, but I don't see the point of doing it under the new G2SS.

[DuctTape]

1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

Somebody please stop me if I'm wrong here.   

But,  I was told back in the dark ages,   that the whole point of spending all this time and effort learning woodcraft skills was so that we as scouts could go hiking and camping on our own.

         " but what is they get hurt,lost, or stung?   What if they meet a skunk?   What if it rains,snows, or hails?  

          So we learned first aid, map and compass, the north star,  how to tell poison ivy from Virginia creeper,  how to light a fire in the rain,  take care of our mates, tie                      knots in the dark, to suck it up  and keep going when we hit a bump in the road.

         It wasn't to get badges as much as it was to be trusted to go out on our own.

        As boys growing into men that is what we yearned for.    To have short bursts of being on our own . They gradually got longer and longer as we proved we could be            trusted .

        Until when we said that we where going on a 5 day hike the only question the parents asked was " When and where do you need to be picked up?"   They were                        treating us like adults

        because we had been acting like adults.  

That is what scouting was .   For me, my  best mates ,and my sons,  but I greatly fear not my grandson.  and that is what I am mourning the loss of

        

        

 

 

 

For many many troops the change you lament has been here for decades. The loss of patrol method adventure was replaced with a trailer and plop camping for a long time in most troops. The new g2ss sadly codifies it as the new normal for everyone.

[Eagledad]

Well! This discussion has turned into a downer.

BUT HEY, there's another discussion on breakfast tacos. 

Barry

Edited June 12, 2018 by Eagledad

[ParkMan]

40 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

For many many troops the change you lament has been here for decades. The loss of patrol method adventure was replaced with a trailer and plop camping for a long time in most troops. The new g2ss sadly codifies it as the new normal for everyone.

I'll admit - I had the wind taken out of my sails when I realized why the new rules.

I'm still very optimistic that we can find a way to work with the new adult requirement.  Just because adults are there doesn't mean that patrols can't work.  Adults close by, but not part of the conersations - that kind of thing.

[Oldscout448]

59 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

For many many troops the change you lament has been here for decades. The loss of patrol method adventure was replaced with a trailer and plop camping for a long time in most troops. The new g2ss sadly codifies it as the new normal for everyone.

I know.   It was a bit of a search to find one that did more than Webelos III.  for my sons to join, and that was 20 years ago.    I have been a gadfly to the "drop and plop" Scouters for years.  Most of them were unwilling to let scouts do much of anything out of their sight.  Heck, I had one SM who threatened to expel an entire patrol because they dared to have a patrol meeting at the local Pizza Hut.    But I could always quote the book at them.   Now....