Mike Rowe: Death of Boy Scouts?

[perdidochas]

8 hours ago, ianwilkins said:

And you can do that in the UK. Just don't try and fly over here with it in your pocket.

In the UK you can carry a swiss army knife, with less than a 3" folding blade. Or a multitool with same. You do not need a reason to carry them. No need to feed naked when you visit. They can still be offensive weapons though, if they're being used, errr, offensively. 

In the spirit of scouting, I'm not going to say what I find crazy about America.

 

 

I don't (and have never) carried a pocket knife as an offensive (or even defensive) weapon.  I just carry them because there are times you need to cut, etc. 

[FireStone]

18 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

...It doesn't meant you can't have and use one. I'll be hiking in a remote part of scotland next month. I will certainly have it about me then. I will probably walk to the local shop tomorrow. I won't have it with me then. Why would I?...

 

Everyone's "why would I" is going to be different, and often times unpredictable. I don't need a flashlight every day, but the one day I really did need one I didn't have one (I was on the 21st floor of a building in NYC when the city went dark and the building's backup generator failed). I don't want to ever have to make my way down that many stairs in the dark again, so now there is a flashlight in my bag every day. 

Maybe I don't need a pocket knife every day, but I have one for the times when it might be useful. We won't always know what those times will be, but to me it's something easy enough to carry daily even if the "why would I" need it is a rare occasion. 

[perdidochas]

1 minute ago, FireStone said:

Everyone's "why would I" is going to be different, and often times unpredictable. I don't need a flashlight every day, but the one day I really did need one I didn't have one (I was on the 21st floor of a building in NYC when the city went dark and the building's backup generator failed). I don't want to ever have to make my way down that many stairs in the dark again, so now there is a flashlight in my bag every day. 

Maybe I don't need a pocket knife every day, but I have one for the times when it might be useful. We won't always know what those times will be, but to me it's something easy enough to carry daily even if the "why would I" need it is a rare occasion. 

I carry a flashlight every day as well (in addition to the one on my phone). 

[ianwilkins]

23 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

I don't (and have never) carried a pocket knife as an offensive (or even defensive) weapon.  I just carry them because there are times you need to cut, etc. 

I never did say you, or anyone else on scouter.com, that you were carrying them as an offensive weapon. All I'm saying is, if one is used offensively, they become an offensive weapon, like all sorts of things would. So it's not a problem, as you don't.

Just to reiterate, you can be in the UK with a swiss army knife or multi-tool with a blade less than 3" long and not have to have a reason for carrying it when stopped by the police. You can use it for cutting things, opening bottles of wine, trimming nasal hair, to your heart's content.

[Saltface]

44 minutes ago, ianwilkins said:

I never did say you, or anyone else on scouter.com, that you were carrying them as an offensive weapon. All I'm saying is, if one is used offensively, they become an offensive weapon, like all sorts of things would. So it's not a problem, as you don't.

Just to reiterate, you can be in the UK with a swiss army knife or multi-tool with a blade less than 3" long and not have to have a reason for carrying it when stopped by the police. You can use it for cutting things, opening bottles of wine, trimming nasal hair, to your heart's content.

If it's legal, why does Scouts UK discourage every-day carrying?

Edited May 22, 2018 by Saltface

[cgail]

1 minute ago, Saltface said:

If it's legal, why does Scouts UK discourage every-day carrying?

 

Legal doesn't always mean allowed.

I know when we worked our Bears through their Whittling Chips, we moved the activity to another site than our charter (a public school).  This is due to the school policy about knives, and we believed it should and would apply even after hours.

That, and we wanted to reinforce to our Scouts that they don't take knives to school.  There have been too many stories about Scouts throwing it in their backpack after a Scouting event, and then getting suspended because it was found at school.

[walk in the woods]

19 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

... the law says you need to have a reason for having it about your person. ...

 

9 hours ago, ianwilkins said:

...You do not need a reason to carry them. ...

No offense gents but "need" is the language tyrants use to convince their subjects to voluntarily give up their natural rights.  I don't "need" to carry a knife.  I choose to carry one because I find it useful and it's within my rights so long as I'm not using it to hinder the rights of others.  It is the government's obligation to justify restricting my rights and "other people do bad things with a knife" isn't sufficient.  

It's not BP that's rolling over in his grave, it's John Locke.

[Hawkwin]

2 hours ago, Saltface said:

Seat belts and life jackets don't curtail the adventure.

Ha! You state now but it would not surprise me if some state in the future required all minors to wear a life jacket in any pool deeper than 4'.

[Gwaihir]

I think this ties in rather well to Mike Rowe's sentiments.

 

https://reason.com/archives/2017/10/26/the-fragile-generation

[perdidochas]

2 hours ago, ianwilkins said:

I never did say you, or anyone else on scouter.com, that you were carrying them as an offensive weapon. All I'm saying is, if one is used offensively, they become an offensive weapon, like all sorts of things would. So it's not a problem, as you don't.

Just to reiterate, you can be in the UK with a swiss army knife or multi-tool with a blade less than 3" long and not have to have a reason for carrying it when stopped by the police. You can use it for cutting things, opening bottles of wine, trimming nasal hair, to your heart's content.

A multitool with a 3" blade is next to useless.  It's a nanny state law.  Simply harshly punish offensive use of objects, not categorize things as inherently offensive.  It's an irrational law. 

[perdidochas]

1 hour ago, cgail said:

 

Legal doesn't always mean allowed.

I know when we worked our Bears through their Whittling Chips, we moved the activity to another site than our charter (a public school).  This is due to the school policy about knives, and we believed it should and would apply even after hours.

That, and we wanted to reinforce to our Scouts that they don't take knives to school.  There have been too many stories about Scouts throwing it in their backpack after a Scouting event, and then getting suspended because it was found at school.

Of course legal means allowed. It might not mean appropriate, but it does mean allowed. 

 

In terms of the accidental knife thing, at least in our school district, they have a rule called "safe harbor."  If the scout turns the knife in to his teacher as soon as he's aware of it, the knife just gets confiscated until the child's parent comes and picks it up, no other repercussions. If the student discovers he has the knife, and tells his buddy and tries to hide it, that's a different matter.  I made sure all the scouts in the troop knew this rule.  We never had an incident that I know of. 

 

Well, I taught for 8 years in schools that didn't allow students to have knives.  I carried one daily.  Why?  Because it was legal, and it would be a silly law to apply to adults.  Had a kid turn me in once for having a knife. The SRO came up to me later, told me about it and had a good chuckle.  He said as long as I didn't stab a student with it, it was ok by him. 

Edited May 22, 2018 by perdidochas

[cgail]

I always have one in our charter as well.  I actually used it in front of the principal to open some items at the school carnival we were recruiting at, and she was grateful I had it.

 

Given the zero tolerance policy at the district however, we still caution our Scouts against it.  Unfortunately, our district doesn't have a safe harbor.  There have been incidents in the past where students were disciplined for doing the right thing....

Edited May 22, 2018 by cgail

[CommishJulian]

On 5/17/2018 at 1:49 PM, gblotter said:

Who doesn't love Mike Rowe?

"When I left the organization in 1979, there were 5 million active members. Today, there are 2.3 million. With the recent departure of the Mormon community, that number will soon drop to under two million. Clearly, something is wrong. The question is what? Is it the past sexual scandals? Is it the more recent admission of gay and transgender members? I would imagine those are factors. But a 60% decline? That seems very unlikely. Besides, the drop-off started long before all that. Likewise, girls have always been excluded from The Boy Scouts, so I’m skeptical that welcoming them now, will fix whatever’s broken."

I'm finding that there's a generational issue contributing to the decline of Scouting.  I broadly refer to it as the "Me" generation.  These adult-children run the program mainly for themselves, their kids, and their friends.  They create a class structure of haves vs havenots.   A new scout parent will probably leave after being yelled at (by a parent they hardly know) because they did something wrong (usually trivial), because they didn't know (no training given to them).

On the other hand..

My boy will turn off the game console when it's time to go to Scouts.  His choice.  (His Troop had no social class structure)  That tells me that when you give new families a great program, they will stay in it.  They also tend to attract new families. 

Conclusion: Good environments won't save Scouting, but it will grow Units.  -And I can live with that.

[ianwilkins]

16 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

 

No offense gents but "need" is the language tyrants use to convince their subjects to voluntarily give up their natural rights.

 

15 hours ago, perdidochas said:

A multitool with a 3" blade is next to useless.  It's a nanny state law.  Simply harshly punish offensive use of objects, not categorize things as inherently offensive.  It's an irrational law. 

 

I never said the law was ideal, it's confusing vague and all sorts of bad things, probably brought in knee jerk after the media went on about knife crime for a bit. But changing it is hardly a vote winner, and there isn't a knife lobby, an NKA I suppose, in the UK, to fight for the rights of knife owners, so *shrugs* we just get on with it, and honestly, we're fine with it. Not sure this discussion can really go anywhere, so I'm going to leave it there. 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by RememberSchiff
Adjusted language

[RememberSchiff]

Let's get back in the USA and with more thoughtful, relevant responses to Mike Rowe's comments.

The enemy is bad (BSA) ideology, and the inability to effectively confront it. Do I favor co-ed Scouting? Hell no. I can’t think of a single good reason to put girls and boys in the same troop, the same tent, the same boxing ring, or the same game of British Bulldog. But I can think of many good reasons to include them in a unified effort to confront the siren song of “safe spaces.”

Someone has to challenge the insipid belief that safety is the most important part of living. Someone has to challenge the idea that feelings trump achievement. Someone has to challenge the idea that “crying closets” on campuses designed to console stressed out students who just can’t handle their finals exams, (or the outcome of a presidential election,) will produce a responsible, productive adult.