Mike Rowe: Death of Boy Scouts?

[walk in the woods]

From the linked above:

"Knives should be considered as a tool and treated as such.  Those who are going to use them should get training for their use, as you would for a saw or an axe.  Knives are an offensive weapon so great care should be taken when dealing with them.  "

Well, Offensive Weapon is a bit of a redundancy.  Almost everything I own could be turned into an "offensive weapon."  Hammers, drills, broom sticks, my belt or shoe laces, the keys on my keyring, a thrown cell phone or rock, a cricket bat or ball.  Hell, I have a big pointy fork (assault fork?) I use for turning meat on the grill.......Sigh.  Sorry Skip, it's not common sense, it's nonsense on steroids.

[Gwaihir]

45 minutes ago, Cambridgeskip said:

Not among the scout fratternity because the laws that govern this didn't just come out the blue. There had been increasing restrictions on the use and ownership of knives over many years so it was a bit of a salami slice effect. Besides for the most part it's common sense. In the same way I don't carry my torch or my first aid kit or mess tins around with me all the time I don't have my knife about me all the time on camp and neither would I expect the scouts to. It's a case of you get it when you need it.

 

The Daily Mail though.... when it found this out when into an editorial hissy fit. But as Ian mentioned, that's what the Daily Mail does. Think Fox News on steroids.

That's crazy to me.  I carry my pocket knife around with me literally every day and feel naked without it, figuratively speaking. I carry it to work, to church, around the house, in the yard, to the super market, everywhere.  It's a multi tool and I've used at least of it's implements at least once a day, if not multiple times a day and have come to the aid of people all the time because I had my pocket knife on me.  I've also gotten comments thereafter about how "well, you are a boy scout"  To modify the old proverb about prophylactics... A knife is like an umbrella, it's better to have one when you don't need it, than to not have one when you do. 

This however is why comparing the US to the UK is a futile effort, something as simple as carrying a knife around has so markedly a different perspective.  Comparing our Scouting programs is completely out of scope. We're different cultures from soup to nuts. 

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, Gwaihir said:

That's crazy to me.  I carry my pocket knife around with me literally every day and feel naked without it, figuratively speaking. I carry it to work, to church, around the house, in the yard, to the super market, everywhere.  It's a multi tool and I've used at least of it's implements at least once a day, if not multiple times a day and have come to the aid of people all the time because I had my pocket knife on me.  I've also gotten comments thereafter about how "well, you are a boy scout"  To modify the old proverb about prophylactics... A knife is like an umbrella, it's better to have one when you don't need it, than to not have one when you do. 

This however is why comparing the US to the UK is a futile effort, something as simple as carrying a knife around has so markedly a different perspective.  Comparing our Scouting programs is completely out of scope. We're different cultures from soup to nuts. 

Only to play devil's advocate...

I've been given two or three pocket knives over the years and have never bothered to carry them.  I have to cut something once a week or so.  When I do, I grab a pair of scissors or a utility knife from the garage.  To me they're just a tool. I don't carry a screwdriver around, why would I carry a knife?

I'm glad we have the freedom to do it, but it's not a big deal to me at all.

[Gwaihir]

3 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Only to play devil's advocate...

I've been given two or three pocket knives over the years and have never bothered to carry them.  I have to cut something once a week or so.  When I do, I grab a pair of scissors or a utility knife from the garage.  To me they're just a tool. I don't carry a screwdriver around, why would I carry a knife?

I'm glad we have the freedom to do it, but it's not a big deal to me at all.

That's fair, freedom first imo.  For me, having it on me has proven convenient in a multitude of ways, but mostly because I've only assessed what needs fixing when it's already in hand well away from my work bench were better, more dedicated tools are located.  cork screw has proven it's worth more times than I can count and maybe only 1 out of 10 times to actually open a wine bottle, scissors have given me a quick nose trim in the mens room out in public many a time, the blade has cut more than it's fair share of fruit while at work, scored cardboard for kid's art projects, stripped insulation from wiring in the server room, Lord knows I've used the flat head for more than it should be allowed to be used for, etc etc etc.  The swiss army knife is the greatest multi-tool ever created imo and I can't imagine being without one. ever. 

 

Also, Gibb's rule #9: "Never go anywhere without a knife". 

[Cambridgeskip]

The "offensive weapons" part is a legal term. That is what that policy is getting at. It's not saying the scout association says it, it means the law says it. Like it or not the law defines knives as such and as an organisation we have to work within the law. So unless the knife falls within certain parameters (3 inches or less in length, folds away and does not lock) the law says you need to have a reason for having it about your person. My point is that the scout policy makes sense when seen in the context of working within that.

It doesn't meant you can't have and use one. I'll be hiking in a remote part of scotland next month. I will certainly have it about me then. I will probably walk to the local shop tomorrow. I won't have it with me then. Why would I?

The policy (and it is guidance by the way, not a set rule) does not prevent scouts using knives, they certainly do, but part of it is not just training them in how to use them in their hand but also to get into habits that mean they don't get arrested. We had a survival skills camp back in March. They had them in their pockets then because the nature of the program meant they were using them a lot. We had a camp earlier this month as part of the national archery tournament. The scouts took knives but left them in their tents for the most part. As I say, it's partly about training them not to fall foul of the law.

[ianwilkins]

13 hours ago, numbersnerd said:

I've lost count of the number of times I've assisted someone in random situations. Out shopping, in the office, etc. All because I always carry a pocketknife.

And you can do that in the UK. Just don't try and fly over here with it in your pocket.

12 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

That's crazy to me.  I carry my pocket knife around with me literally every day and feel naked without it, figuratively speaking.

This however is why comparing the US to the UK is a futile effort, something as simple as carrying a knife around has so markedly a different perspective.  Comparing our Scouting programs is completely out of scope. We're different cultures from soup to nuts. 

In the UK you can carry a swiss army knife, with less than a 3" folding blade. Or a multitool with same. You do not need a reason to carry them. No need to feed naked when you visit. They can still be offensive weapons though, if they're being used, errr, offensively. 

In the spirit of scouting, I'm not going to say what I find crazy about America.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by ianwilkins

[CalicoPenn]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 6:03 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Still in there.  Page 92 has this

Note: Pioneering projects, such as monkey bridges, have a maximum height of 6 feet. Close supervision should be followed when Scouts are building or using pioneering projects.

Yep - I missed it - since its now in an appendix that deals mostly with working from heights and what the OSHA requirements are for doing so.  Thanks for pointing it out.

[Jameson76]

On 5/21/2018 at 7:03 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Still in there.  Page 92 has this

Note: Pioneering projects, such as monkey bridges, have a maximum height of 6 feet. Close supervision should be followed when Scouts are building or using pioneering projects.

Sad part is the whole thing is like 105 pages....not so much a Guide as a Tome 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Jameson76

[Eagle94-A1]

53 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

Yep - I missed it - since its now in an appendix that deals mostly with working from heights and what the OSHA requirements are for doing so.  Thanks for pointing it out.

No worries. I was hoping and praying the pioneering restrictions were gone. In fact, I was excited when you posted that there were no more. But the  side of me that speaks BSA Bureaucratese Doublespeak said to confirm it before celebrating. 

[T2Eagle]

On 5/21/2018 at 7:03 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Still in there.  Page 92 has this

Note: Pioneering projects, such as monkey bridges, have a maximum height of 6 feet. Close supervision should be followed when Scouts are building or using pioneering projects.

I don't understand why people seem to have a problem with this one.  A friend of mine is a physician who is a VP for a Fortune 500 firm.  Our troop was building a monkey bridge a few years back and we got talking about the height limits.  He said he had read the science on this and it's unassailable, there are a lot of stats he had at his command that I don't remember exactly, but a fall from above five feet or so is the place where you stop expecting broken arms and start expecting serious closed head and traumatic brain injuries. 

Arguing against this rule is akin to arguing against seat belts and life jackets.

[qwazse]

4 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I don't understand why people seem to have a problem with this one.  A friend of mine is a physician who is a VP for a Fortune 500 firm.  Our troop was building a monkey bridge a few years back and we got talking about the height limits.  He said he had read the science on this and it's unassailable, there are a lot of stats he had at his command that I don't remember exactly, but a fall from above five feet or so is the place where you stop expecting broken arms and start expecting serious closed head and traumatic brain injuries. 

Arguing against this rule is akin to arguing against seat belts and life jackets.

@T2Eagle you need to balance utility against probability. The utility in this case is freedom from blunt force trauma. The probability is not just that of a boy falling from 25' if he is in a trained/controlled setting. But the probability that, not offering a controlled setting with safety instruction, the boy will put himself in situations where he is on a folding chair climbing up to nail his first story between two pines,  then climbing up to the second story from the first, then the third story from there. No brain bucket, no harness, no formal stress test, no training regarding fasteners, no railings/ladders in the design ... the boy's dad caught him before the roof (at 30') was suspended!

Aside from whatever percentage of boys who bore of scouts because they are as rambunctious as my relative. American boys are entering the work-force worldwide with no training. Not all employers are OSHA compliant. If a young man has no experience building safely at altitude, he'll have no sense that he should push back at an unscrupulous boss.

BSA isn't making boys safer. It's passing them off on others who could care less.

[perdidochas]

21 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

Not among the scout fratternity because the laws that govern this didn't just come out the blue. There had been increasing restrictions on the use and ownership of knives over many years so it was a bit of a salami slice effect. Besides for the most part it's common sense. In the same way I don't carry my torch or my first aid kit or mess tins around with me all the time I don't have my knife about me all the time on camp and neither would I expect the scouts to. It's a case of you get it when you need it.

 

The Daily Mail though.... when it found this out when into an editorial hissy fit. But as Ian mentioned, that's what the Daily Mail does. Think Fox News on steroids.

Very impractical, IMHO.  I pretty much have a pocket knife (and a torch) with me whenever I'm camping. 

[Saltface]

44 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I don't understand why people seem to have a problem with this one.  A friend of mine is a physician who is a VP for a Fortune 500 firm.  Our troop was building a monkey bridge a few years back and we got talking about the height limits.  He said he had read the science on this and it's unassailable, there are a lot of stats he had at his command that I don't remember exactly, but a fall from above five feet or so is the place where you stop expecting broken arms and start expecting serious closed head and traumatic brain injuries. 

Arguing against this rule is akin to arguing against seat belts and life jackets.

Seat belts and life jackets don't curtail the adventure. This mentality of risk avoidance is more akin to "no running on the playground" or "category 2 rapids only." 

[perdidochas]

20 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Only to play devil's advocate...

I've been given two or three pocket knives over the years and have never bothered to carry them.  I have to cut something once a week or so.  When I do, I grab a pair of scissors or a utility knife from the garage.  To me they're just a tool. I don't carry a screwdriver around, why would I carry a knife?

I'm glad we have the freedom to do it, but it's not a big deal to me at all.

You live differently than I do.  It's rare that I don't have a pocketknife (pretty much just airplanes and courthouses).  Some weeks, I don't use them. Others, I use them everyday.  A knife (especially a multitool or a Swiss Army knife) is a multipurpose tool (that includes screwdrivers). 

[perdidochas]

22 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Yep. And the change to allow boating at pack and den activities occurred in May 2015, just prior to the June 2015-December 2016 Cub Scout Program.

Funny story, I was complaining about  some of the aquatic requirements not being able to be done except at council activities, and only if council's had the proper facilities. In my council, only 1 camp meets criteria, and it is at the extreme edge of the council (the neighboring council uses it more than we do!). Someone brought up all the safety stuff and why Cubs should only be able to do it at council events. I pointed out how Boy Scouts, Sea Scouts and Venturers could do those activities with the minimum of SSD and SA, why not Cubs? Then proceded how packs will have resources to do it safely, i.e. the 2 rescue swimmer instructors and former lifeguard instructor serving as CM and DLs in my pack. It got back to someone on the 411 committee, and May 2015 happened.

Thank you for backing me up.  I'm very glad that they have revised that.  Our Pack/Troop is a coastal troop (meeting place is only about 100 yards from the Intercoastal canal). It was absurd to keep our cubs from being able to ride in a canoe with their parents, when many of our cubs (even tigers) were experienced kayakers.