Mike Rowe: Death of Boy Scouts?

[ParkMan]

It used to say that Cub Scouts were only allowed to use flat bottom boats.  The current G2SS appears to have clearly moved away from that.

[ianwilkins]

On 5/18/2018 at 7:52 PM, Gwaihir said:

I wonder when we'll take our safe space hysterics to the point where London is, where the mayor is stating publicly no one ever has a need to carry a knife and people get arrested for carrying scissors and screw drivers around in public... 

It's a different country, a different starting point, and a different culture.

If they have good reason to carry those things, and don't arouse the suspicions of the police, they don't get arrested. That's how the law works over here. No doubt you might find a few Daily Mail articles listing ridiculous examples of "outraged" plumber who gets their stanley knife confiscated, or even arrested, but that's the Daily Wail for you.  You need a "lawful reason" I think the expression is, to carry a bladed article. There may be exceptions for small penknives, I can't remember. At the moment I think there's some kind of gang turf war going on in some parts of London*, so there seems to be a lot of stabbings, funnily enough, the Mayor wants that to stop.

* That probably 95% of residents, and 99.9999% of tourists won't ever notice. I always feel pretty safe walking around central London, even at night, even with my kids. We had no hesitation taking our Explorer Scouts up to London for a Monopoly Run, and them going round London on their own in groups without leaders.

So I can, for example, carry a box of sheath knives in my car to a scout meeting, if I got stopped by the police, I could reasonably argue that I had a legitimate reason to be carrying them, and it would have to be a pretty jobsworth copper** that had taken against me to decide to confiscate them, or arrest me. If I wandered down my local high street with a machete strapped to my back, just because that's how I rolled, I could expect to have my collar felt. I'm pretty sure, on balance, most residents of the UK are happy with this arrangement.

It's not "safe space hysterics" it's normal for the UK.

** That, by the way, won't be carrying a firearm, or have one in his car.

Edited May 21, 2018 by ianwilkins

[Eagle94-A1]

10 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

•  No independent patrol overnights    Patrols can certainly go camping on their own - they just need approval from their Scoutmaster and have appropriate adult leadership around.  My patrol camped on its own every June - and always had a couple of adults on the troop who just sat back in camp and read (we did feed them) - we needed someone to drive us after all.

 

 

Actually up to circa 2012, Patrols could camp on their own WITHOUT (emphasis) adults. I am going to assume that is what Mike Rowe meant.

 

10 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

• Pioneering project height limits    No longer in the G2SS - have at it.

Still in there.  Page 92 has this

Note: Pioneering projects, such as monkey bridges, have a maximum height of 6 feet. Close supervision should be followed when Scouts are building or using pioneering projects.

[walk in the woods]

15 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

I have to ask - where-ever did the idea that a Cub Scout couldn't go out in a canoe with their parent?   Canoeing is allowed in the Cub Scouts - they just can't canoe in moving water (aka a river or creek) or on float trips.

Well, only if the parent is a BSA swimmer and proficient in the craft.

Pg 16: For activity afloat, those not classified as a swimmer are limited to multiperson craft during outings or float trips on calm water with little likelihood of capsizing or falling overboard. They may operate a fixed-seat rowboat or pedal boat accompanied by a buddy who is a swimmer. They may paddle or ride in a canoe or other paddle craft with an adult swimmer skilled in that craft as a buddy. They may ride as part of a group on a motorboat or sailboat operated by a skilled adult.

[Gwaihir]

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Actually up to circa 2012, Patrols could camp on their own WITHOUT (emphasis) adults. I am going to assume that is what Mike Rowe meant.

 

Still in there.  Page 92 has this

Note: Pioneering projects, such as monkey bridges, have a maximum height of 6 feet. Close supervision should be followed when Scouts are building or using pioneering projects.

both of these are utterly absurd.  a group of teens already do just about anything on their own without the guidance of the BSA... but under the guise of an organization priding itself on training leaders and being prepared... they are barred from doing so. absurdity to the max. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Gwaihir
took qwazse's advice.

[Oldscout448]

So can Venture crews go camping on their own?

[qwazse]

14 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

both of these are utterly absurd.  a group of teens can do just about anything on their own... but under the guise of an organization priding itself on training leaders and being prepared... they are barred from doing so. absurdity to the max. 

Rephrase: groups of teens do these on their own ... without the guidance of an organization priding itself on training leaders and being prepared.

Last week, I got a picture of a young relative atop his a "tree house" three stories tall -- built from found plywood. Sketchy did not begin to define it!

If his former SM was willing and able to deliver on the promise of scouting, that could have been a safe, solid pioneering tower! Our nation's most ambitious kids are in harms way thanks to a litigious society.

[Gwaihir]

Just now, qwazse said:

Rephrase: groups of teens do these on their own ... without the guidance of an organization priding itself on training leaders and being prepared.

 

yes, that was what I meant.  thanks. 

[qwazse]

1 minute ago, Oldscout448 said:

So can Venture crews go camping on their own?

A Venturing crew is not a patrol. Not even close. Most days. But take note ...

I've had 18-20 year olds come to me with a good plan that sometimes included younger siblings. I've helped them improve their plans, on one occasion tossing them my car keys.

Scouting happens, with or without BSA.

[perdidochas]

16 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

I have to ask - where-ever did the idea that a Cub Scout couldn't go out in a canoe with their parent?   Canoeing is allowed in the Cub Scouts - they just can't canoe in moving water (aka a river or creek) or on float trips.

Per G2ss at the time, Cub Scouts were only allowed to canoe on Council camps.  I see now that they've changed it to a more generic flat water (this occurred when my now almost high school graduate was a Tiger Cub in 2007. 

[Saltface]

7 hours ago, ianwilkins said:

It's a different country, a different starting point, and a different culture.

If they have good reason to carry those things, and don't arouse the suspicions of the police, they don't get arrested. That's how the law works over here. No doubt you might find a few Daily Mail articles listing ridiculous examples of "outraged" plumber who gets their stanley knife confiscated, or even arrested, but that's the Daily Wail for you.  You need a "lawful reason" I think the expression is, to carry a bladed article. There may be exceptions for small penknives, I can't remember. At the moment I think there's some kind of gang turf war going on in some parts of London*, so there seems to be a lot of stabbings, funnily enough, the Mayor wants that to stop.

* That probably 95% of residents, and 99.9999% of tourists won't ever notice. I always feel pretty safe walking around central London, even at night, even with my kids. We had no hesitation taking our Explorer Scouts up to London for a Monopoly Run, and them going round London on their own in groups without leaders.

So I can, for example, carry a box of sheath knives in my car to a scout meeting, if I got stopped by the police, I could reasonably argue that I had a legitimate reason to be carrying them, and it would have to be a pretty jobsworth copper** that had taken against me to decide to confiscate them, or arrest me. If I wandered down my local high street with a machete strapped to my back, just because that's how I rolled, I could expect to have my collar felt. I'm pretty sure, on balance, most residents of the UK are happy with this arrangement.

It's not "safe space hysterics" it's normal for the UK.

** That, by the way, won't be carrying a firearm, or have one in his car.

http://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/1515/what-is-the-scout-policy-on-the-use-of-knives

Quote

The carriage of knives is also to be considered.  If a knife is considered as a tool,  you would only really carry the knife when there is an expectation to use the tool, after all, you wouldn't carry an axe around a campsite on the off chance of coming across some wood to chop.  Therefore, knives when not being used should be stowed away until such time as they are needed.  Legally, you are not allowed to carry a knife in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.  A campsite, which may technically be private property as it is owned by a District or County, is considered as public property because of its use.  Knives should not be carried unless they are going to be used, and should be put away when not in use.

As the most functional and convenient tool to carry, a knife is the right arm of Being Prepared. When this policy change came out, did it not cause a stir row?

[Eagle94-A1]

9 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Per G2ss at the time, Cub Scouts were only allowed to canoe on Council camps.  I see now that they've changed it to a more generic flat water (this occurred when my now almost high school graduate was a Tiger Cub in 2007. 

Yep. And the change to allow boating at pack and den activities occurred in May 2015, just prior to the June 2015-December 2016 Cub Scout Program.

Funny story, I was complaining about  some of the aquatic requirements not being able to be done except at council activities, and only if council's had the proper facilities. In my council, only 1 camp meets criteria, and it is at the extreme edge of the council (the neighboring council uses it more than we do!). Someone brought up all the safety stuff and why Cubs should only be able to do it at council events. I pointed out how Boy Scouts, Sea Scouts and Venturers could do those activities with the minimum of SSD and SA, why not Cubs? Then proceded how packs will have resources to do it safely, i.e. the 2 rescue swimmer instructors and former lifeguard instructor serving as CM and DLs in my pack. It got back to someone on the 411 committee, and May 2015 happened.

[Cambridgeskip]

43 minutes ago, Saltface said:

http://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/1515/what-is-the-scout-policy-on-the-use-of-knives

As the most functional and convenient tool to carry, a knife is the right arm of Being Prepared. When this policy change came out, did it not cause a stir row?

Not among the scout fratternity because the laws that govern this didn't just come out the blue. There had been increasing restrictions on the use and ownership of knives over many years so it was a bit of a salami slice effect. Besides for the most part it's common sense. In the same way I don't carry my torch or my first aid kit or mess tins around with me all the time I don't have my knife about me all the time on camp and neither would I expect the scouts to. It's a case of you get it when you need it.

 

The Daily Mail though.... when it found this out when into an editorial hissy fit. But as Ian mentioned, that's what the Daily Mail does. Think Fox News on steroids.

[numbersnerd]

14 minutes ago, Cambridgeskip said:

Not among the scout fratternity because the laws that govern this didn't just come out the blue. There had been increasing restrictions on the use and ownership of knives over many years so it was a bit of a salami slice effect. Besides for the most part it's common sense. In the same way I don't carry my torch or my first aid kit or mess tins around with me all the time I don't have my knife about me all the time on camp and neither would I expect the scouts to. It's a case of you get it when you need it.

 

The Daily Mail though.... when it found this out when into an editorial hissy fit. But as Ian mentioned, that's what the Daily Mail does. Think Fox News on steroids.

I've lost count of the number of times I've assisted someone in random situations. Out shopping, in the office, etc. All because I always carry a pocketknife. Always. And it's usually the BSA camping knife given to me over 40 years ago. Quite often the response when seeing the logo on the knife is along the lines of, "Well of course you're ready to help, you're a Scout aren't you?"

[FireStone]

1 hour ago, Saltface said:

http://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/1515/what-is-the-scout-policy-on-the-use-of-knives

As the most functional and convenient tool to carry, a knife is the right arm of Being Prepared. When this policy change came out, did it not cause a stir row?

Ugh... the wording of that 1st paragraph is just awful. Sentence #1: "Knives should be considered as a tool and treated as such." Sentence #3: "Knives are an offensive weapon so great care should be taken when dealing with them."

🙄