National, Religion, Membership, Oath and Law

[RememberSchiff]

7 hours ago, ayates said:

Overall, including Beavers (ages 5-7), ~6% of the kids in Scouts Canada are in LDS groups. The impact to the sections in which the LDS have groups is as follows:

 

Allan.

Could you cite a source? I have not found a recent LDS statement regarding Scouts Canada which became coed 20 years ago

I found from https://globalnews.ca/news/4196815/mormons-severs-ties-boy-scouts-of-america/

The Mormon boys who will be leaving represent about 18.5 per cent of the 2.3 million youth in the organization (BSA).

More than half of the church’s 16 million members live outside the U.S. and Canada.

And from

https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/faith/lds-church-announces-plan-to-drop-boy-scouts-of-america/article_20ed7ad9-ac1b-5c4f-bab7-5232ab8b8c9d.html

About a year ago, the LDS Church announced that young men ages 14 to 18 in the United States and Canada would no longer be participating in the Varsity and Venturing programs offered by the Boy Scouts of America and Scouts Canada. The change took effect at the beginning of this year (2018).

[ParkMan]

12 hours ago, ayates said:

Overall, including Beavers (ages 5-7), ~6% of the kids in Scouts Canada are in LDS groups. The impact to the sections in which the LDS have groups is as follows:

 

Allan.

As an aside - interesting how much smaller the number of scouts is in Canada. I know Canada has a population about 11% of the US - but even accounting for that, the US numbers are still significantly larger.

From the BSA 2016 annual report:
Cubs: 1,262,311
Scouts: 822,999
Venturers: 136,629

 

[gblotter]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

... but even accounting for that, the US numbers are still significantly larger.

For now.

[Eagle1993]

UK numbers look a lot better than Canada.

UK is 1/5 the population of USA.

Cub Scouts/Beavers

UK: 286,218   BSA: 1,252,311

UK has 13% more Cub Scouts than BSA per capita.

Scouts/Boy Scouts

UK: 127,127   BSA: 822,999

UK has 23% less Scouts than BSA has Boy Scouts.  Note the BSA number includes varsity scouts so that could drop a lot.

I didn’t include UK explorers or BSA Venturing, Learning for Life or Explorers

Now, with the UK apparently growing their numbers recently and BSA losing (especially after LDS exit) I wouldn’t be surprised if the BSA older program drops below UK’s.

So, we should really look at the UK to see how they recovered while other scouting programs have and continue to drop.

Also, we shouldn’t give up on LDS scouts.  My father is a volunteer in a District that does have its fair share of LDS scouts and apparently many scouts and even LDS scout leaders have indicated they plan to continue in scouting into 2020.  That could be wishful thinking (on both sides) but I do think the BSA should be aggressive in working with LDS scouts and leaders to see what can be done to keep as many as possible.  

 

 

[Cambridgeskip]

38 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

UK numbers look a lot better than Canada.

UK is 1/5 the population of USA.

Cub Scouts/Beavers

UK: 286,218   BSA: 1,252,311

UK has 13% more Cub Scouts than BSA per capita.

Scouts/Boy Scouts

UK: 127,127   BSA: 822,999

UK has 23% less Scouts than BSA has Boy Scouts.  Note the BSA number includes varsity scouts so that could drop a lot.

I didn’t include UK explorers or BSA Venturing, Learning for Life or Explorers

Now, with the UK apparently growing their numbers recently and BSA losing (especially after LDS exit) I wouldn’t be surprised if the BSA older program drops below UK’s.

So, we should really look at the UK to see how they recovered while other scouting programs have and continue to drop.

Also, we shouldn’t give up on LDS scouts.  My father is a volunteer in a District that does have its fair share of LDS scouts and apparently many scouts and even LDS scout leaders have indicated they plan to continue in scouting into 2020.  That could be wishful thinking (on both sides) but I do think the BSA should be aggressive in working with LDS scouts and leaders to see what can be done to keep as many as possible.  

 

 

Dont forget your Boy Scouts goes to 18 where as ours goes to 14. So to make a direct comparison you need to include our explorers which runs 14-18

latest numbers (as at 31 Jan 2018) were released last week. Total across all ages now up to 638K. I've not seen a breakdown by age group though.

[JoeBob]

On 5/12/2018 at 3:04 PM, FireStone said:

Progressives don't "hate what the BSA stood for." I'm what you might call a "progressive", and I love the BSA, always have, always will. 

I also don't agree that "we've sacrificed the quality of Eagle, which used to be the standard for Excellence." I think it still is a standard of excellence.

And last I checked, duty to god was still part of the program at all levels, so your idea that "we've given up on God",

I did not say that ALL progressives hate BSA.  But since all the activist groups attacking BSA were progressives, I can understand why you're being sensitive.

Multiple forum threads, Meritbadge Schools, and Eagle Mill troops prove that the rank of Eagle is no longer held in the same esteem.  I know of one LIfe scout who used as an excuse to not finish Eagle that he did NOT WANT EAGLE on his college application because it would hurt his chances to get into a liberal arts school.  (I'm sure there were other reasons, but I'd never heard that one.)

Wasn't Trail Life a BSA defection based on religion? LDS, the Mormon Church, left because of differences in the implementation God's will for his people, His Scouts.  Haven't there been EBORs where a candidate was passed using a belief in self or pantheism?  With SOME progessive groups trying to take God off of our currency, Irving can't be far behind.

I'm glad that you like the BSA the way it is today.  You'd have loved it back in the day.

Thank you for the courtesy of your reply.

 

 

[FireStone]

23 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

I'm glad that you like the BSA the way it is today.  You'd have loved it back in the day.

Not sure this qualifies as "back in the day", but I loved Scouting back in my day, 1986-1998.

[LegacyLost]

For what it's worth as a son of a family with a more or less casual scouting legacy (brother made eagle, other brother and myself made star for various reasons, father a scout) and as non LDS individuals we are also done with the BSA permanently.

So our sons will never be Boy Scouts because as we see it the Boy Scouts don't exist anymore. Whatever the BSA is, it not only holds little interest but it's actually morally reprehensible and repulsive to us at this point. My father considers the Boy Scouts to be dead.

And no matter how much BSA corporate schemes, they lost us permanently when moral deviancy was approved and further legitimized via the organizational code over the last 5 years or so.

My son will be joining Trail Life USA next year. The principles of the original Boy Scouts will live on in our family and the legacy is NOT LOST actually, they will just live on in another form. I am especially looking forward to the Trail Life Grand Prix (Pinewood Derby replacement) with my son among other things.

Thank God for Trail Life or we would indeed be breaking tradition forever. We'll never compromise our moral position because we fear God before any man, much less a relatively young institution founded by mortal men.

And this is something that apparently BSA corporate cannot possibly understand, or else the Boy Scouts would still be prospering today. Smaller by necessity, no doubt, but not on the brink of extinction.

Edited May 14, 2018 by LegacyLost

[RememberSchiff]

@LegacyLost welcome to scouter.com.

[David CO]

14 hours ago, FireStone said:

Not sure this qualifies as "back in the day", but I loved Scouting back in my day, 1986-1998.

I was a Scoutmaster back then, and I would say that you had missed the "Golden Age of Scouting", which was well over by the time you came along. I agree that someone who came up in scouting in the 90's (or later) might not see today's scouting program as being altogether different from what they experienced as youth.

 

[David CO]

7 hours ago, LegacyLost said:

And this is something that apparently BSA corporate cannot possibly understand, or else the Boy Scouts would still be prospering today. 

They execs are prospering. That's all they really care about.

 

[LegacyLost]

53 minutes ago, David CO said:

They execs are prospering. That's all they really care about.

 

For now and judging by finances maybe not for very long. They follow the current zeitgeist, but what they fail to realize, apparently, is that they really have undermined the scout oath to honor God and be morally straight but it's not that they should fear the wrath of God as a resut of that, no. It's that what they have done *is* the wrath of God manifested by the organization being "given over" to that which is unnatural and "inconvenient" and the subsequent consequences thereof. But then this is the entire culture and bigger than the BSA, clearly.

 

In any event, some of us come from this background, and we trace our line back through the Puritans, and so for us we will not bow to man and therefore we have parted ways with the Boy Scouts.

 

It's sad but necessary, yet, the ideals live on and cannot be destroyed. Scouting in its goodness and purity will live on through those who carry the light through this dark age of civilizational decay, so as to one day bring back what was lost as the decline and subsequent collapse unfolds in the broader context of the west itself. The BSA ultimately is just one manifestation of that broader arc of history on display, sad though it specifically is.

Those carrying the western ideals are reproducing and having children and those who are not are dying off, so at some point this will reverse, but not until we go through winter, as far as I can foresee. Take in the sails and batten down the hatches ladies and gentlemen.

Edited May 14, 2018 by LegacyLost
Typo

[NJCubScouter]

17 hours ago, JoeBob said:

Haven't there been EBORs where a candidate was passed using a belief in self or pantheism?

I realize this is somewhat of a tangent, but I just asked the Internet what "pantheism" is, and I don't think there would be any justification in denying Eagle to someone on the basis that he or she is a "pantheist."  The BSA requires a belief in a higher power and that you do your duty to that higher power.  Pantheism has a higher power, even though it doesn't "look like" the deity of most of the major religions.

[gblotter]

9 hours ago, LegacyLost said:

For what it's worth as a son of a family with a more or less casual scouting legacy (brother made eagle, other brother and myself made star for various reasons, father a scout) and as non LDS individuals we are also done with the BSA permanently.

@LegacyLost  I understand the bitter tone you express, and I'm sorry for it. There are many of us in the same boat who feel disillusioned by these recent changes.

We are an LDS Scouting family (three generations of Eagles), and we'll soon exit BSA too. However, we depart not with bitterness but with sadness over what has been lost. I'm glad my son could experience the adventures of traditional Scouting at its best. He is an Eagle Scout with 50+ merit badges and OA. Six summer camps plus National Jamboree. He's had a wonderful ride, and I'm especially grateful I could experience it with him as Scoutmaster (two terms, 10+ years total).

As I've said before, I'm not walking away from Scouting - rather Scouting walked away from me. With these changes, BSA wants to appeal to a different kind of Scout and a different kind of Scouter with a new program based on the co-ed model of "World Scouting". Sadly, when BSA does not attract girls in sufficient number, the program will change even further to make it more girl-friendly, all while our boys keep walking away into the arms of the video game culture. Absent the anchor/annoyance of LDS, BSA will continue drifting off course. Further changes in the not-distant future will include: boy-only troops eliminated (exclusionary), God jettisoned (repressive), patriotism de-emphasized (jingoistic) and OA disbanded (cultural appropriation). Progressives will continue pressing in their demands until the movement is unrecognizable in its programs and minuscule in its membership.

My plans for an earlier departure have changed. I have been asked to remain as Scoutmaster until the LDS exit on 12/31/19. There is much to be done over the next 18 months, with up to 10 of our boys targeting Eagle before the deadline. By hanging on, I will disappoint @RememberSchiff who has declared me unworthy to wear the purple crest because I desire a traditional boy-only summer camp experience for our troop. Or @CalicoPenn who has urged me to quit now because my affinity for traditional Scouting is a poison to the program. Anyone who doesn't embrace these changes is shamed as "unScout-like" or "conditional Scouter". So be it. Ironically, this new "inclusive" Scouting is not inclusive enough for the likes of me.

Trail Life might be more appealing if our church did not already have plans for a robust youth program to replace BSA. There is life after Scouting.

Edited May 14, 2018 by gblotter

[ParkMan]

17 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

Dont forget your Boy Scouts goes to 18 where as ours goes to 14. So to make a direct comparison you need to include our explorers which runs 14-18

latest numbers (as at 31 Jan 2018) were released last week. Total across all ages now up to 638K. I've not seen a breakdown by age group though.

Grouping the US & UK programs by general age category:
BSA:
5.5-10.5: 1,252,311 (3,844 per 1M people)
10.5-17: 959,628 (2946 per 1M people)

Scouts UK:
5.5-10.5: 286,218 (4360 per 1M people)
10.5-17: 170,875 (2603 per 1M people)

It looks like the US & UK programs are similar in size per captia.  The UK is a little larger at younger end, the US a little larger at the older end.  However, since there are quite a few duplicate registrations in the Boy Scout/Venturing programs, I'm not sure the US is really any larger.

Surely, we'll see the US numbers drop below this once the LDS change happens.

Does seem like the UK program is a very good one to look to for guidance on moving forward.