National, Religion, Membership, Oath and Law

[thrifty]

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

Maybe we're coming back around to increased social acceptance (and hopefully increased popularity) of these non-sports activities.

I definitely agree to a point.  Class of '92 and the things that hurt my popularity and got eye rolls back then were "geeky" culture.  Comic books, video games, board games, computers, etc..  Now these things are part of popular culture all over the world like never before.  The younger generations appear to be more open minded.  Of course this does not apply to everyone.  There's also all of this talk about football concussions and it seems like every year there are stories about young athletes dropping dead while playing.  Everyone I knew in our 20's complained about bad knees from football and we were barely old enough to drink.  Scouts also has this "one with nature" vibe to it and many young people are more concerned about the environment now.  But sports stars at all levels will continue to get the glory and that won't change. 

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

I think at the unit level you have to provide program that meets the different needs  You can all go on the outing, but they each can have the opportunity to participate as they need  Older scouts may camp apart a bit  Also with HS schedules they may want to crash in the afternoon.  We go to the lake and do tubing, older scouts may get a rougher ride  We go backpacking and look for loop options  Younger less experience do a 4 mile while older guys do a 9 mile .  Also do high adventure every summer in addition to camps to keep older scouts engaged  

Last point is understand you may not see them for a season.  That is what it is, welcome them when they are there

Engaging older scouts in solely on the local units

I agree that it's on the local units to retain their older scouts.  You describe nicely some of the considerations.

I'd like to see national do some thing I've never seen before in Scouting - really focus on fixing this.  For example - I'd like to see training on 14-17 program development and on retention.  I'd like to see true experts emerge who work with the troops on annual calendar and meeting structure. And so on.

 

[MikeS72]

15 hours ago, bsaggcmom said:

In order to go to summer camp or camp more than 72 total hours in a year's time adults must now be registered adult members in the unit.

A lot of people are misinterpreting this requirement.  The new requirement is not 72 total hours in a year's time, the 72 hour rule is that if a single event covers 72 hours, adults must be registered.  In many cases, this means either summer camp with the troop, or Cub resident camp (in our Council Cub resident camp is 4 days).  

[DuctTape]

7 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

The fundamental requirement to being a Christian is faith in Christ as the savior. Not "going to church", not following golden rules... those things flow from a faith in Christ,  and faith without works is dead as James said, but they are not what makes a Christian a Christian.  There may be a reason they can't make it to church, but they remember the sabbath day and keep it holy far better than the pious that attend church every Sunday.  A scout is trustworthy and taken at their word. It's hard to call someone fake, Christian or otherwise, without knowing the fullness of their life.   

A scout is reverent stems directly from Lord Baden Powell himself... do we divorce this thing call Scouting from the father of scouting once and for all, and just claim it as some thing modernity created out of whole cloth? 

"Development of outlook naturally begins with a respect for God... Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbor and reverence for oneself as a servant of God." - BP

The main thrust of BP's "practical religion" was not that by being religious one is a Scout, but instead when one is a Scout through their actions they are practicing their religion. I think the DRP and many who tout the need for a specific religion or god miss this nuance. I do not expect all to agree with me though and that is ok as I am a progressive and I do not expect everyone to believe as I do.

[David CO]

5 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I agree that it's on the local units to retain their older scouts.  You describe nicely some of the considerations.

I'd like to see national do some thing I've never seen before in Scouting - really focus on fixing this.  For example - I'd like to see training on 14-17 program development and on retention.  I'd like to see true experts emerge who work with the troops on annual calendar and meeting structure. And so on.

 

I'm not quite sure what it is you are suggesting. 

Who are these "true experts" supposed to be? Youth members? Unit leaders? District commissioners? Council executives?

Some of us might feel that after twenty, thirty, or forty years of service in unit level scouting, we might be considered to be experts.

[ParkMan]

I'm sure you are one of the experts.  By experts I mean real experts - someone with the experience, skills, and vision to help a unit improve it's retention.  This is not simply someone from council or national that got blessed with a title.  

As for who they are generally - based on how things work today - that's unclear.  The role description is someone knowledgeable in developing a unit plan and has experience in retaining a high percentage of the members in a scout unit.  That person would then go out and be a resource to other units that do not.  So, if you've got a troop of scouts, struggles with retention of older scouts, and wants to do improve retention, these experts would be out there to work with them.   We might think of them as a consultant.  Someone who gets engaged for a limited amount of time to help a unit improve.  Once done, they step back - perhaps being on call in case questions arise.

 

[an_old_DC]

26 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'm sure you are one of the experts.  By experts I mean real experts - someone with the experience, skills, and vision to help a unit improve it's retention.  This is not simply someone from council or national that got blessed with a title.  

As for who they are generally - based on how things work today - that's unclear.  The role description is someone knowledgeable in developing a unit plan and has experience in retaining a high percentage of the members in a scout unit.  That person would then go out and be a resource to other units that do not.  So, if you've got a troop of scouts, struggles with retention of older scouts, and wants to do improve retention, these experts would be out there to work with them.   We might think of them as a consultant.  Someone who gets engaged for a limited amount of time to help a unit improve.  Once done, they step back - perhaps being on call in case questions arise.

 

So, you mean Unit Commissioners?

[walk in the woods]

38 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

and wants to do improve retention,

Key word and tricky phrase.  It assumes units see retention as an issue and are willing to change.

[ParkMan]

 

13 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

So, you mean Unit Commissioners?

Could be.  But I think many unit commissioners are generalists.  Do they all really know how to solve the unit retention problem?

 

Just now, walk in the woods said:

Key word and tricky phrase.  It assumes units see retention as an issue and are willing to change.

Agreed.

 

My basic premise here is if you want to solve a problem, you focus on solving the problem.  The approach in the BSA to solving a problem usually seems to be a revamp of a training, an article in Scouting magazine, JTE, or some new rule.  I think we need to be more proactive than that.

[an_old_DC]

5 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

 

Could be.  But I think many unit commissioners are generalists.  Do they all really know how to solve the unit retention problem?

 

If they are good and are dedicated to helping their unit, Yes. Admittedly, UC are hard to recruit and really good ones are few and far between.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

The main thrust of BP's "practical religion" was not that by being religious one is a Scout, but instead when one is a Scout through their actions they are practicing their religion. I think the DRP and many who tout the need for a specific religion or god miss this nuance. I do not expect all to agree with me though and that is ok as I am a progressive and I do not expect everyone to believe as I do.

I agree. I spoke of this very point at Woodbadge and other leadership courses. But there is a lot of independent thinking required of adult leaders in this program. It's not easy for leaders on either end of the spectrum to guide their scouts of their spiritual duties.

My concern isn't so much how to insure spiritual application at the scout level. My concern is taking out the spiritual intent at the Vision and Mission level of the program. From the BSA, "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."  No matter how any adult interprets ethical and moral choices of their scouts, they can always reference the one and only source of their interpretation to god. Or God, in my case. Once god is taken out as the source of ethical and moral thought, only the adults can take credit for how they judge their scouts' moral actions leaving the scouts no recourse in their response. While BP may have been speaking of a practical religion, he still believe the source of living the Oath and Law was spiritual.

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

The main thrust of BP's "practical religion" was not that by being religious one is a Scout, but instead when one is a Scout through their actions they are practicing their religion. I think the DRP and many who tout the need for a specific religion or god miss this nuance. I do not expect all to agree with me though and that is ok as I am a progressive and I do not expect everyone to believe as I do.

 What a strange thing to say. I must admit I had a hard time deciding whether to take the rest of your post seriously. I can't tell if these words are a response of pride or humility. 

Barry

[Hawkwin]

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I must admit I had a hard time deciding whether to take the rest of your post seriously. I can't tell if these words are a response of pride or humility. 

Barry

Something I teach my scout son - especially as it pertains to the internet (and something for which I personally struggle - which is why I know the term):

MRI: most respectful interpretation.

https://www.fs.blog/2017/01/most-respectful-interpretation/

[Eagledad]

12 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Something I teach my scout son - especially as it pertains to the internet (and something for which I personally struggle - which is why I know the term):

MRI: most respectful interpretation.

https://www.fs.blog/2017/01/most-respectful-interpretation/

That is very good Hawkwin, thank you.

Barry

[Jameson76]

40 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

My basic premise here is if you want to solve a problem, you focus on solving the problem.  The approach in the BSA to solving a problem usually seems to be a revamp of a training, an article in Scouting magazine, JTE, or some new rule.  I think we need to be more proactive than that.

Survey...you forgot to mention a survey...there's always a survey

[DuctTape]

Barry, we agree more than we disagree. In general I think where we do diverge, it is in minor details for the most part. Even with topics where it may appear we have fundamental differences, I think if we dove deep into the actual details, we would have much agreement. Please take my above statement, and all previous ones in the best possible scouting spirit.