National, Religion, Membership, Oath and Law

[Oldscout448]

3 hours ago, DuctTape said:

The problem here is the insistence that everyone needs to follow the same moral code vs the idea that each may have a different moral code. 

Let me make sure I understand you here.    Are you saying that everyone in society should just follow whatever moral code strikes their fancy?

[David CO]

16 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

 

IMO, Cotton Mather would have used the latter.

 

True, but he would have also seen the computer as a form of witchcraft and burnt us all at the stake. The death warrant would have been beautifully written though, so there is that.

 

[DuctTape]

27 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Let me make sure I understand you here.    Are you saying that everyone in society should just follow whatever moral code strikes their fancy?

No. I said the problem here is the insistence that everyone needs to follow the same moral code vs the idea that each may have a different moral code. 

[Oldscout448]

56 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

No. I said the problem here is the insistence that everyone needs to follow the same moral code vs the idea that each may have a different moral code. 

Ah, thank you

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, JoeBob said:

There is a good number of non-LDS members here that would like to come with you.  That our core beliefs have been devalued frustrates us.  This topic has been a useful vent.  Thanks.

I think there are two different views of what the BSA represents.  To me, the BSA provides a program that I can leverage to help my kids be better adults and have a good time along the way.  Whether the specific policies of the BSA match my beliefs is less important. 

If you and I were in the same troop I'd tell you to not sweat this change and how it reflects on your personal beliefs.

It's pretty clear from my postings that I support the inclusion of gay scouts and adults.  Until a few years ago the BSA did not.  I didn't feel slighted by the BSA during this time.  I would encourage others to do the same.

[ayates]

10 hours ago, Peregrinator said:

Scouts Canada is about 1/4 the size it was in 1965 (its peak) and 1/3 the size it was in 1990.

Here is a tabulated comparison of Canada, UK, and USA. Note that the sections cannot be compared directly, as they age ranges differ from country-to-country.

 

Allan.

[mashmaster]

45 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I think there are two different views of what the BSA represents.  To me, the BSA provides a program that I can leverage to help my kids be better adults and have a good time along the way.  Whether the specific policies of the BSA match my beliefs is less important. 

If you and I were in the same troop I'd tell you to not sweat this change and how it reflects on your personal beliefs.

It's pretty clear from my postings that I support the inclusion of gay scouts and adults.  Until a few years ago the BSA did not.  I didn't feel slighted by the BSA during this time.  I would encourage others to do the same.

Until I met a scout that was being openly held back from advancement in his troop and discriminated by both adults and youth in his old troop did it really hit home.  He is a great young man, very giving, leads without being asked.  On his own he sends helpful information to the troop like packing lists and meeting plans.  Attends church regularly, his church doesn't care about his sexuality.  And I don't either.  He is almost an Eagle now.   I am happy that we were able to accept him in our troop and watch this young man grow.  

[David CO]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

I think there are two different views of what the BSA represents.  To me, the BSA provides a program that I can leverage to help my kids be better adults and have a good time along the way.  Whether the specific policies of the BSA match my beliefs is less important. 

If you and I were in the same troop I'd tell you to not sweat this change and how it reflects on your personal beliefs.

It's pretty clear from my postings that I support the inclusion of gay scouts and adults.  Until a few years ago the BSA did not.  I didn't feel slighted by the BSA during this time.  I would encourage others to do the same.

Your post demonstrates that you understand absolutely nothing about our religious beliefs. Our religious beliefs are a 24/7 type of thing. We don't just go to church on Sunday and set them aside the rest of the week. They follow us everywhere we go and exists in everything we do. 

There is no chance whatsoever that we would set aside our morals and values. It is a waste of breath for anyone to suggest that we should.

 

[ParkMan]

I never said set aside your personal beliefs.

What I said was should not feel slighted that the BSA has a membership policy that doesn't agree with your moral beliefs.  It's not that BSA judging your beliefs.  It's not the BSA telling you how to live your life or what morals you should impart to your kids.

From the BSA website:
We work to ensure every youth and adult member has the opportunity to join a local unit that aligns with his or her beliefs and with the experience he or she wants within the Scouting community. 

You seem to be pushing a narrative that because the BSA is allowing gay members that it is devaluing your beliefs and morals.  I continue to find no evidence of that at all.  Further, I see no evidence at all that the inclusion of gay members in the larger BSA program in any way impeeds the ability of your youth to fully follow your morals while upholding the Scout law and oath to it's fullest.

 

[ParkMan]

I'm Catholic and did a little searching for information on my church's take on this topic.  I found a very illustrative statement at:
http://www.nccs-bsa.org/pdf/letters/NCCS.20170208.Press.Release.pdf

Here they write:
The BSA has stipulated that religious partners will continue to have the right to make decisions for their units based on their religious beliefs. Scouting’s chartered organizations have the right to uphold their own moral standards within the units they charter. The teachings of the Catholic Church are upheld! Thus this change by the BSA has no impact on the operation and program delivery of scouting program in Catholic Chartered units.

Further down:
A Catholic parish can establish a membership guideline that follows Catholic teaching.

 

[Oldscout448]

Sorry but from all the "loving inclusion " I have been reading about in Catholic publications and hearing from the pulpit.   I would be astonished if any parish would establish such guidelines that would last three years before being nullified by the bishops

Does " Who am I to judge?" ring a bell?

 

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Oldscout448

[Oldscout448]

Sorry if that came off sounding a bit snarky,  I just think you are showcasing a loophole that will barely exist.

[gblotter]

In my mind, it boils down to the declaration “a Scout is morally straight”.

In earlier days, it was clear that BSA placed gay/trans outside the boundaries of being morally straight. Now reversed, BSA has declared gay/trans as morally straight. It’s no more complicated than that.

BSA has made a conscious choice. In a calculated gamble, BSA deliberately changed sides in the culture wars (to the joy of some and the disappointment of others). It is impossible for BSA to serve two masters on this issue.

In earlier times, liberals/progressives voted with their feet and dollars against BSA. Is it any surprise that conservatives/traditionalists are now doing the same?

The recent decisions about girls also fuels passionate disagreement, not over morality but over wisdom. I personally believe the inclusion of girls fundamentally compromises BSA’s ability to deliver for boys. Others think there are no appreciable differences between boys and girls. This kind of flawed gender-neutral thinking will be the downfall of the movement. That is where the sense of betrayal lies when I think of our BSA National leadership.

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

Sorry if that came off sounding a bit snarky,  I just think you are showcasing a loophole that will barely exist.

The point is that it's the Chartered Organization's choice - not the BSA's.  The BSA says - religious CO, you establish your membership standards as it makes sense for your beliefs.  That's up to you.  No gays - that's the CO's call.  No girls - that's the CO's call.  The BSA isn't forcing the CO to do anything with respect to gay, transgender, or female members.  The CO is free to implement the program that is consistent with it's beliefs.  That passage from the Catholic church is merely confirming that.  They are saying - yes, we agree that it's our choice and the BSA is leaving it up to us.

If the Bishops come along and say "nope, you can't exclude gay members", that's the church's choice - not the BSA's.

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by ParkMan

[RememberSchiff]

Getting there. Time to take dog to vet.

Edited May 17, 2018 by RememberSchiff