National, Religion, Membership, Oath and Law

[David CO]

12 hours ago, gblotter said:

Their council will likely be losing around 80 percent of their Scouts/units. Friends of Scouting donations are plummeting. Layoffs are inevitable. Giving up camp properties that they can no longer afford to maintain. Going from a top performing council to one struggling for survival.

And yet, the SE still publicly supports the BSA decisions.

I thought he was being incredibly dishonest. He was appealing for local financial support by saying that the council is a franchisee, and not responsible for the recent decisions of BSA. This is utter nonsense. His remarks in the interview prove it.

What franchisee would continue to publicly support the franchiser after it makes a decision that will cost the franchisee 80% of its customers? Nobody would do that. They would be screaming their heads off. They might even take the franchiser to court.

This SE obviously works for BSA. He is beholden to BSA for his job, and he must publicly support BSA decisions in order to keep his job. He must praise BSA even when it is acting against the best interests of his council. 

I hope he loses his job.

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by David CO

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Cambridgeskip said:

It's often not even as straight forward as believing or not believing. Often it's a case of looking at it differently. One of the best sermons I ever heard was a priest who said that if anyone stands in front of you and claims to understand every word of the bible and have all the answers they are lying either to themselves or to you.

So true. 

The struggle for many is just believing the bible is the word of God. If a person can't get past that, then differing interpretations are just semantics. And it seems these days semantics is more about yelling the loudest. 

But Christianity is under a great attack, and homosexuality is the main reason. Just note who leads the the protest against Christian political policies today and likely it based from the gay activist. We are seeing it a lot just in our town locally.  And it's a logical conclusion because while many religions have differing perspectives of behaviors, most religions (big three) pretty much agree that homosexuality is not one of the good behavior. So, by conviencing the community that religion is a silly mythical exercise, the immoral can become moral. 

Then there is the purity of natural science, the biology of all animals is to survive and appropriate. Technology may conveniently provide allowances, but in the strict context of natural biology, heterosexuality reigns. So, even in the purest form of a pragmatic discussion,  self desire must exist to even have a discussion.  

Barry

Edited May 15, 2018 by Eagledad

[walk in the woods]

2 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

Something seems shady with that council. To me if seems like they focused almost all their resources on fundraising, not membership because they knew they could rely on the LDS to automatically meet their numbers. That would makes sense for the United Way severing ties (which you never see unless that council has a large fund surplus). But it looks like that decision to not recruit non-LDS scouts is about to blow up in their faces. 

 

Also, very weird to see a scout executive not wearing silver loops or a SE patch. 

It's been a long time since I lived in Idaho Falls but I suspect the 80% of scouts might likely mirror the general population of the area. 

Quick check: https://www.bestplaces.net/religion/metro/idaho/idaho_falls claims just over 62% of the population of Idaho Falls is LDS and only slightly less in Pocatello (https://www.bestplaces.net/religion/metro/idaho/pocatello) maybe due to the University's influence.  If LDS families are only slightly larger than the average eastern Idaho family it's not out of line to guess the numbers are inline with the 80% quoted.

[walk in the woods]

56 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

That is interesting.  I am Catholic, my current troop is sponsored by my parish, but neither my Pack nor troop growing up was sponsored by my then parish, and a troop I was involved with for my nephew while he was a scout was also not a Catholic parish.  The COs were respectively a Knights of Columbus, a Presbyterian Church, and a volunteer fire company.  So my scouting and my Catholicism have never been as intertwined as they clearly have been for a member of the LDS.  It is worth remembering that the same is true for more than 80% of all scouts here in the US.

I find it interesting that, as far as I can tell from the Church's statements, they are neither attributing their decision to recent BSA decisions, nor are they giving any instruction that LDS youth not participate in scouting.  I wonder at the number of people who claim that they loved scouting but are leaving now that it is not a mandated part of their worship.

I long wondered whether the relationship between the LDS Church and BSA was both a strength and at the same time an Achille's heel for the BSA.

Didn't the Knights transfer all their charters to local parishes a couple years back?

[Hawkwin]

1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

 I think the difficulty lies and where some of us would say this is clearly a sin biblically speaking. But others say no it's not it's fine in fact it should be celebrated we don't care what that old book says.

BSA is non-denominational. Following the old book is not required. I have no more business questioning the practices of Catholics or Hindu than I do trying to tell other people that they must accept my (or my faiths) interpretation of sin. Again, I am not going to judge others and while you state it is clear to you - it is only clear to those that follow that faith. With hundreds of Christian denominations, there are going to be more that are wrong than are right when it comes to what is actually "Biblical" and I am sure each one thinks they have the correct interpretation - and they can't all be right.

I would never assume to tell another person that they are not following the Bible. Again, not my place to judge them and it would leave me feeling like I was a modern day Pharasee.

[T2Eagle]

1 minute ago, walk in the woods said:

Didn't the Knights transfer all their charters to local parishes a couple years back?

They did give up their charters in order to refocus on service to the parishes.  Most of the units found new homes with parishes, probably a few folded and a few found non parish homes.

[LegacyLost]

6 hours ago, DuctTape said:

But that is only your belief based on your interpretation of your religious text for your god. Many many others have different religious beliefs based on their own. You believe you are right, else you would believe differently; but it is still a belief as is mine which differs greatly from yours. The BSA and the USA allow us both to keep our own beliefs. 

No, because I believe I live my belief. It's not merely an empty creed. Faith without works IS DEAD.

You are either disingenuous or insane to think that those of true faith would endure the BSA endorsing and codifying what is considered an abomination before God.

Or you're forgetting the Scout Oath. It's largely the combination of what the Scout's claim to be with what they are that cannot be abided by ANYONE of traditional faith unless they have either abandoned it or they don't truly believe.

My children will NEVER participate in an organization that tells them that sexual perversion and homosexuality is ok and in effect honoring God and morally straight. I will have to face God someday and answer for these things.

This is me communicating what the BSA has foolishly done and why it is a dead organization to its former constituency.

Evangelical leader Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, called on all of the faith to leave the BSA completely last year. I concur, and so do many others.

[LegacyLost]

5 hours ago, FireStone said:

You're the 2nd person this week to tell me that I hate something that I love. First I was told I hate the BSA. Now I'm told that I hate God. It's interesting that people on an Internet forum who know so little about me seem to think they know me so well. 

Last night I was working with my Scouts on a service project at a local park, I guess hating the BSA the whole time. Friday night I'll be at our Pack meeting, apparently hating the BSA then, too. Sunday morning I'll be at church, I suppose hating God and my faith. Geez, I sure do a lot of hating. 😄

So then should I say that I'm at work right now, "loving" my job? 😉

If we all make up a god in our own image according to our desires then yes, we can all love such a "God" and such a "faith".

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth" (From 1 Timothy 2)

[Hawkwin]

12 minutes ago, LegacyLost said:

Evangelical leader Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, called on all of the faith to leave the BSA completely last year. I concur, and so do many others.

Franklin Graham also said:

We are under attack by Muslims at home and abroad. We should stop all immigration of Muslims to the U.S. until this threat with Islam has been settled. Every Muslim that comes into this country has the potential to be radicalized—and they do their killing to honor their religion and Muhammad. During World War 2, we didn’t allow Japanese to immigrate to America, nor did we allow Germans. Why are we allowing Muslims now?

 

Not really a voice that would in any way represent BSA's openness to people of all faiths and races.

[DuctTape]

19 minutes ago, LegacyLost said:

No, because I believe I live my belief. It's not merely an empty creed. Faith without works IS DEAD.

You are either disingenuous or insane to think that those of true faith would endure the BSA endorsing and codifying what is considered an abomination before God.

Or you're forgetting the Scout Oath. It's largely the combination of what the Scout's claim to be with what they are that cannot be abided by ANYONE of traditional faith unless they have either abandoned it or they don't truly believe.

My children will NEVER participate in an organization that tells them that sexual perversion and homosexuality is ok and in effect honoring God and morally straight. I will have to face God someday and answer for these things.

This is me communicating what the BSA has foolishly done and why it is a dead organization to its former constituency.

Evangelical leader Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, called on all of the faith to leave the BSA completely last year. I concur, and so do many others.

And many others believe (and live) differently according to their faith. 

[gblotter]

2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I find it interesting that, as far as I can tell from the Church's statements, they are neither attributing their decision to recent BSA decisions

It is my opinion that both sides are using polite language as this divorce is settled, but I believe there is plenty of dissatisfaction to go around. BSA resents LDS blocking progressive changes. LDS resents BSA abandoning core values.

 

2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

nor are they giving any instruction that LDS youth not participate in scouting.

LDS is motivated to play nice to avoid getting tagged with the "hater" label as they exit. BSA is motivated to play nice to avoid poisoning the LDS pool who might consider joining a community pack/troop.

 

2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I wonder at the number of people who claim that they loved scouting but are leaving now that it is not a mandated part of their worship.

The church bulk-registers all LDS boys and young men in BSA, but not all LDS love Scouting.

Some LDS avoid Scouting altogether. The LDS exit represents no change to them.

Some LDS participate in Scouting as a duty of church membership. The LDS exit will relieve them of a burden.

Some LDS like Scouting well enough, but considered it the responsibility of the Scoutmaster. The LDS exit will be no big deal to them - meh.

Many LDS are supportive of Scouting but have reservations about recent BSA decisions. They will sprint to Eagle before the LDS exit, and then embrace the new church youth program.

A relatively few LDS (less than 10%) are Scouting enthusiasts with motivations independent of their church membership. They are the most likely candidates for joining a community pack/troop after LDS exit.

 

3 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I long wondered whether the relationship between the LDS Church and BSA was both a strength and at the same time an Achille's heel for the BSA.

Each organization has a right to self-determination, and each organization will suffer without the other (although I personally believe that BSA will suffer more in this breakup). It is all very sad, but that's life.

[T2Eagle]

3 minutes ago, gblotter said:

A relatively few LDS (less than 10%) are Scouting enthusiasts with motivations independent of their church membership. They are the most likely candidates for joining a community pack/troop after LDS exit.

I guess this is what surprises me, or is at least something I never really understood until now --- because this description is pretty accurate for the 80% of us who are not part of LDS.  We love scouting qua scouting, and I think this why I believe that although the LDS decision will have a negative effect it won't be crushing and will be very uneven across the country.  I'm in Ohio and there aren't more than a handful of LDS units in my council all of them relatively small.

[gblotter]

28 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I'm in Ohio and there aren't more than a handful of LDS units in my council all of them relatively small.

That sounds about right, reflecting the general strength of the LDS church in Ohio.

The quality of LDS Scouting units varies widely based on local leadership and conditions. Some are excellent, some are barely functional, with everything in between. Small LDS congregations struggle to come up with enough critical mass to operate a Scouting program. I know of some LDS troops with just the bare minimum of 5 boys required to register a unit - that's a tough situation. My own troop here in California does ok with 30 registered Scouts divided into three age-based patrols.

From what I understand, a key characteristic of the new church youth program will be flexibility to meet the needs of both large and small congregations. Youth can select activities from a cafeteria-style menu of categories including outdoor adventure, skill building, leadership, service, physical fitness, spiritual development, etc. An absent component will be badges and rank advancement (which some here decry as in impure motivation, anyway).

[Saltface]

4 minutes ago, gblotter said:

That sounds about right, reflecting the general strength of the LDS church in Ohio.

The quality of LDS Scouting units varies widely based on local leadership and conditions. Some are excellent, some are barely functional, with everything in between. Small LDS congregations struggle to come up with enough critical mass to operate a Scouting program. I know of some LDS troops with just the bare minimum of 5 boys required to register a unit - that's a tough situation. My own troop here in California does ok with 30 registered Scouts divided into three age-based patrols.

From what I understand, a key characteristic of the new church youth program will be flexibility to meet the needs of both large and small congregations. Youth can select activities from a cafeteria-style menu of categories including outdoor adventure, skill building, leadership, service, physical fitness, spiritual development, etc. An absent component will be badges and rank advancement (which some here decry as in impure motivation, anyway).

If you've got advance knowledge, spill the beans. Will the new program look like the current program for 14-18 year-olds?

[gblotter]

1 hour ago, T2Eagle said:

this description is pretty accurate for the 80% of us who are not part of LDS.

If you say so. I've read enough threads on this forum to understand that plenty of non-LDS Scouting units struggle with parent engagement and adult leader recruitment. I kinda doubt that all 80% of non-LDS can be described as Scouting enthusiasts, but I accept that as your appraisal.

Edited May 15, 2018 by gblotter