OneHour Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 FOG ... I will be dancing that jig if our patrols meet toghether outside of the troop meeting once a month! ScouterPaul, you are not at all out-of-line, but that is surprising that a Woodbadge trained behaves as such ... that is too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Bob White How many SM do you think would say that it is MY troop. My guess would be about 70%. SR540Beaver Who makes sure that the BSA program is being followed, most of the time no one! If you owned a company, would you accept a manager who is supposed to be at work from 9 AM to 5 PM, Monday thru Friday and wearing a suit to show up and work 10 AM to 2 PM, Tuesday thru Thursday in shorts and a tank top? Is my company making more money, growing with this employee? Does he do more work form 10 to 2 than most employees do in a week? Are my customers in love with him? Acc040 I have purchased a lobster sandwich at a McDonald's in Boston! Sorry guys I have not seen very many analogy that work with this scouting stuff! Bottom line, most posts here, seem to be saying that the CO wants nothing to do with the Unit which they "own". Who is watching the program? Mostly it is leaders like us, that look for the correct way to run the program and try to change the old guard, to follow the BSA program. As I have stated in the past, which most poster here do not agree with, is that the training is not strong enough to get the methods of the BSA across to the leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 dan, While it may sound corny; if Scouters are living the Scout Oath and Law, it is each leaders responsibility to make sure they are following the program. Part of good character is doing the right thing even when no one is watching. If a leader knows what the program is, why would he choose to do it differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 "How many SM do you think would say that it is MY troop. My guess would be about 70%." Dan, I would venture to say that number or higher. But that is a lousy defense. It does however support a point I have made before. If you say "my troop" often enough you will convince your self that it is. But its not "your troop" you can't do whatever you want with it. you have a responsibility to the scouts, the CO and the BSA to follow the BSA program, not "your" program. It is in fact the troop your serve. And the point that you think you can do whatever you see fit because you say "my troop" proves my point. The two sem all too often to go hand in hand and both are incoorect. Change one attitude and you will begin to change the other as well. By the way never let the fact that the majority do something wrong be the basis for you doing something wrong. Good character has never been based on following what others do regardless of the numbers, but on following what is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Caddmommy, Sounds like the boys are getting a nice program....it's a shame they are not getting a scouting program! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 SR540Beaver If the training does not get the point across, how can the program be followed? If seems like you are missing my point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddmommy Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Our SM does not say "my troop". The boys plan and run the meetings. They hold there own at scout events. They evaluate their mistakes and aim to improve their skills. They work together to achieve their goals. I don't agree that they are not getting a scouting program. They are getting a very good scouting program. I will talk to him about the choosing of the leadership, but I will not fight with him (at least not at this time) about it. Some of us parents are still shell shocked from the previous SM's snoozefest. I will, though, get the committee members into the BORs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Dan, If everyone in the district does not understand the training, then the district trainer has a problem that needs to be addressed at the district level first and the council level second. If nothing else, you can go to another district and get training there. You are not limited to being trained in your own district. If everyone else gets it except an individual in the unit, then it needs to be addressed at the unit level with the CC, COR or IH. If the person has the program explained to them and what they are doing wrong and choses to ignore it and continue to do it their way, then steps need to be taken to replace them with someone who will follow the program. In the past year, I've taken Cub and Scout Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, Leader Specific training for CubMaster/Committee and SM/ASM, Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills, Troop Committee Challenge, Merit Badge Counselor, CPR/First Aid, Youth Protection and Wood Badge. Everything I learned in each of those classes supported each other class. I attend each Roundtable. I also have read the Troop Committee Guidebook, the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting. I've got a pretty good grasp of the program becasue I chose to learn it by taking courses and self study. The program isn't secret and is easy to understand to anyone who wants to. Are people going to retain everything? No. Will they make mistakes? Sure. Can they make it up as they see fit because they don't "get it"? No. A unit has to have a certain amount of adult leadership in certain roles in order to recharter each year. Surely someone gets it and can steer the one who does not in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 SR540Beaver The majority of the post on this forum it seems that most people do not follow or possibly do not understand the program to follow it. So lets not try to place the blame on the district I am in. Most of the BSA training just hints at how it should be done, I believe that it needs to be stronger, and actually spell out how to follow the Methods. If the program is so easy to follow, how come so many units do not follow it? Do you believe that the majority of the CO, really have much input into the program? It seems that most post on this forum, posters are saying that the CO is just there to sign the recharter once a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Dan: The majority of the post on this forum it seems that most people do not follow or possibly do not understand the program to follow it. So lets not try to place the blame on the district I am in. Beav: I'm not blaming your district. I am pointing out that a poor district trainer could be one possibility why so many people in a geographical area may have difficulty understanding the program. On the other hand, you may have the best trainer in the whole of BSA and nobody will bother to attend his classes. The reasons that people don't understand the program can be many. Dan: Most of the BSA training just hints at how it should be done, I believe that it needs to be stronger, and actually spell out how to follow the Methods. Beav: I agree that it could be stronger, but then all of those volunteers would complain about how intense and time consuming the training and material are. You can't please everyone......just like with the uniform. I disagree that the training "hints" at how it should be done. I'm not the best or most attentive student in the world and I got a pretty good grasp of it. Dan: If the program is so easy to follow, how come so many units do not follow it? Beav: I can't even begin to list all the reasons. Arrogance, laziness, apathy, following bad examples, etc. are just some of the possibilities. There are leaders who look at the boys as "just" kids and can't fathom them being able to actually run their own program. Instead of elections, the SM will appoint boy leaders. Some SM's decide that Committee members don't know real scouting, so they decide they should do the BOR's instead. Do you think he would allow the Committee to do Scoutmaster Conferences? Some think the G2SS is over protective because that isn't the way they did it when he was a kid. Go to any Roundtable and see what percentage of unit leadership actually shows up. When my son was in Cubs, we had an SM come to a Pack meeting to invite our boys to participate in Webelos Woods with his troop. He invited them to come one of their Troop meetings and explained that they work on advancement items and mmerit badges and then invited them to go play Laser Tag the next week in place of a Troop meeting. WHAT! Troop meetings are not for the purpose of working on merit badges and Laser Tag is not allowed under G2SS. How did I know this and he not when his unit is one mile from mine and in the same district. Because I was trained and read BSA materials and he was not. People get out of it what they put into it. If some leaders find it hard to follow the program, I would venture to say that they have done little to try to understand it. Our District Trainer (an Eagle Scout himself) tells me the hardest people to get to class and the hardest nut to crack once they get to class are the SM's who earned their Eagle. Many of them feel that they have been there, done that and know it all. They don't need anyone telling them how to do scouting. Dan: Do you believe that the majority of the CO, really have much input into the program? It seems that most post on this forum, posters are saying that the CO is just there to sign the recharter once a year. Unfortunately no, many CO's have little involvement with their unit. It is a two way street though. Many units do little to build the relationaship either. Regardless of how involved the CO is, as a person who has registered as an adult volunteer with the BSA, it is incumbent on us to learn as much as we can and provide and deliver the program as designed. Dan, when my son was in Cubs, I was the Pack Committee Chair. We pushed training big time. We even offered to pay half of Wood Badge for anyone who wanted to take it. We made training schedules available that listed training in every district. If a date didn't work for you in our district, you could choose another district. In our case, that means a drive across town, not 4 counties away. We had den leaders that just flat wouldn't take the time to go do a 2 hour training. Our district trainer even started providing New Leader Essentials at each montly Roundtable. Periodically, he would provide Leader Specific training at Roundtable. This was in addition to his regular schedule of courses. We couldn't get some people to go to it. We had a few leaders that couldn't even make it to a single Pack Committee meeting once out of 9 months. That is why some units find it hard to deliver the program as designed.....because some people just don't care enough to put forth the effort....not because the program is hard to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle54 Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 The is reality if a leader trys to do it all a lot of folks will let him. Sometimes a Scout Leader has to say we are leaving at 10:00 this time we said we would leave so that we will be back for your folks to pick you up at 1:00. Having been a Scoutmaster it is gift from God to have a good Senior Patrol Leader who leads If possible the adults should present a united front when dealing with Scouts. To me adult participation is a key to having a quality unit. Hopefully I can listen both to praise and constructive suggestions. The scoutmaster who does not listen to scouts and adults (you do not to always agree) is important. Scouting is not a place for a lot of yes men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Been away and trying to catch up, so this is confusing to read. It seems like ScouterPaul started the question and then a similar but separate question started because of something that Dan said. After that it is difficult to follow which question is being addressed. Maybe I'll read through all this a couple more times. But the part that really gums things up is the mental image of FOG dancing a jig. Edited part: OK, I think I've got it now. I and the other ASMs in this troop are on very good terms with the SM. This is partly because we are so grateful that HE is the SM. It is also because we all respect each other. And part of that respect is giving and taking constructive criticism, fairly freely. Sometimes it is even fun to do and we've been able to avoid a lot of the gooey human emotional stuff by maintaining our senses of humor. In fact, this sense of camaraderie is contagious and goes to the boys as well. Good stuff. Bob White, I do understand what you say regarding the sense of propriety toward the troop but when I slip up and refer to 'my' troop it actually is meant in the sense you use. I feel like I belong to it and have a duty to it, not the other way around.(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 "If you say "my troop" often enough you will convince your self that it is." Oh this old song, an oldie but not a goodie. How should one refer to one's troop? When speaking to a Scouter from another troop, "my troop" works well. When speaking to a Scouter from your troop, "our troop" works well. When speaking to the Scouts, "your troop" is great but "our troop" is okay. When spekaing to the Scouts or the Committee, "my troop" ain't okay. Saying "the troop that I serve" is pedantic and sounds slightly medieval. I am reminded of a fellow that I once knew who worked for Gannett and would say, "I was reading the nation's newspaper today and . . ." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglescout03 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 yes it is the right thing to do if you do not who is to know if the sm knows what he is doing and you do not want your troop to fall apart because of him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexy eagle Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 It is your troop just as much as the sm's. If he doesn't like you questioning him, i say, tell him where to stick it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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