Is it right for an Adult Leader to question the SM?

[ScouterPaul]

Our SM resigned this past Monday. There are many reasons for his decision. However, the primary one was, I don't like being questioned and I'm not going to be.

 

History - We are a fairly new and small Troop (11 Scouts). We have 5 people on the committee (one just signed on) with only 3 adults active on a weekly basis who are the only adults who attend all the outings. My current position is MC with quite a bit of ASM duties. The old SM and myself are both Woodbadge trained. Our relationship over the last year or so can best be described as strained.

 

What I would like to know is if I was out of line by questioning him (in private or in a committee situation) concerning his decisions. Let me give you several examples:

 

1. "I am the SM and I get to appoint the SPL and other leaders." (I pointed out to him what the SM Handbook, and the Boy Scout Handbook stated concerning these positions.)

 

2. "The Patrols must meet 2 times a week in addtion to the Troop meeting. (When questioned he stated that it was in the Patrol Leaders Handbook)

 

3. "If I don't think the boys have a mastery of the First Class Scout skills I won't pass them on their SM Conference." (I pointed out that we can not add or detract from any of the requirements and that the Scouts need to do exactly what is stated. I read the SM Conference requirement to him and stated that by participating in the conference the Scout fullfilled that requirement.) He replied by stating that "I'm the SM and if I want to make the SM conference pass/fail I can."

 

His favorite reply whenever I quoted from the handbook was "The Handbook is only a guide".

 

Was I out of line by calling him on what I considered flagerant digressions from the program?

[dan]

If you did the questioning respectfully and privately. Sure, any good leader would like to know how to improve, and would at least listen to what the other person had to say.

BUT, As long as he is the SM, he gets to run the program as he see fit.

[Twocubdad]

Not only is it all right, but is you responsibility to do so.

[Bob White]

"BUT, As long as he is the SM, he gets to run the program as he see fit."

 

Dan, maybe you should take a moment and re-think that response. Is that what you really meant to say?

[SR540Beaver]

Paul,

 

I'd count my blessings that he resigned if I were you. Training is a great and wonderful thing. I've taken practically every training class available. I constantly go back and check materials any time I have a doubt about what I remember from training. That being said, some people just don't get it regardless how much training they've had. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[Fat Old Guy]

I'd be overjoyed if our Patrols met twice a week. Heck, I'd dance a jig if they met once a week.

[Eamonn]

Is it right for an adult leader to question the Scoutmaster?

The answer that sprang into my head first was that I couldn't see any reason not to. Of course picking or choosing the right time and place are very important. From what you have posted you seem to have that covered as long as you didn't try to make him look dumb in front of the committee on purpose. This would bring up your motive. If you knew that you were going out of your way to hurt him or force him into a corner, that wouldn't be nice and would not be following the Scout Law. I'm not in any way saying that this was the case.

Then of course there is the consequences.

In my travels around the District both now and when I was the District Commissioner I have seen and still see Scoutmasters who when it comes to delivering the program are a few fries short of a happy meal. Of course I could ask questions in such a way that they might get so upset and mad at me and maybe at the District, Council and Scouting that they might decide to just chuck it all in. One thing that we don't have an over abundance of is adult leaders.

Now that your Scoutmaster has gone you guys on the committee will have to step in until such a time as your CO selects the new Scoutmaster. What happens to the Scouts in the mean time?

Again from what you have posted this guy Wood Badge or no Wood Badge seems like he was in need of a few more fries in his happy meal.

I wish you and the Troop the best of luck in finding a new and maybe a better Scoutmaster.

Eamonn.

[LPC_Thumper]

I have three positions in Scouting. Two are District, and the other is a CC. Our SM is a buddy of over 20 years. He is the reason that I'm in this troop in the first place. He and are were Unit Commissioners together, we are friends away from Scouting. One of the highlights of my life is taking our sons (he and I and 2 other adults) to Philmont for a trek (along with other boys in the troop).

 

You ask if it's OK to question a SM. I can only talk about my personal experience.

 

We ask each other stuff all the time. We ask in front of the boys, we ask in front of the committee, we ask at our "program" meetings in front of the other adults that advise the troop. We talk all the time. Remember the real hint is we've become FRIENDS because of scouts, I know he's got my back, and frankly, I have his. It works for us.

[dan]

BUT, As long as he is the SM, he gets to run the program as he see fit."

Dan, maybe you should take a moment and re-think that response. Is that what you really meant to say?

 

Your are correct, this is what I should have typed.

As long as she/he is the SM, she/he gets to run the program as she/he sees fit.

 

Where do you beleive I am incorrect on this statement? If the SM says that no scouts may sleep in a tent by themsleves, that is what the troop rule is.

I am not saying I agree with it, it is just what I see within the little piece of the BSA world that I see.

 

[Bob White]

Dan, as long as he/she is scoutmaster they have a responsibility to deliver the BSA's scouting program. Just being the SM does not put you in charge, or allow you to do anything you want.

 

Your approach is very adversarial, "I'll do what I please and if you don't like it you will have to fire me." That is not what scouting is designed to be. As scoutmaster you are part of a balanced team. You are not in charge of the team and you do not have the right to do whatever you please.

 

You answer to the Charter Organization's IH, COR, and CC, as well as to the local representatives of the BSA. A good Scout leader does their job, not whatever they see fit to do.

[SR540Beaver]

Dan,

 

Go back and read the original post again. The SM was making it up as he went with no regard to how the program is designed. He has an oblication as a registered leader to deliver the program as designed. He does not get to decide that he as a father of a scout can do his own son's BOR. Why? Because the SM and ASM's are prohibited from doing BOR's. They are to be done by no less than 3 and no more than 6 committee members. He can't decide to do a Scoutmaster conference with a scout out in his car away from anyone else and break the two deep leadership rules. He can't decide that his units uniform will be purple pullovers and dockers. He CAN do these things, but he is running his own program and not the one designed by the BSA that the charter organization has contracted to operate per the rules. It is rare that you will find some aspect of running a troop that is not covered by the BSA.

 

If you owned a company, would you accept a manager who is supposed to be at work from 9 AM to 5 PM, Monday thru Friday and wearing a suit to show up and work 10 AM to 2 PM, Tuesday thru Thursday in shorts and a tank top?

[acco40]

Think of the SM as a manager of a McDonalds. The charter organization is the person/entity that bought a franchise from the McDonalds parent organization. McDonalds is the BSA. Now does the manager of the McDonalds (the SM) have the freedom to serve whatever food he wants? No. If he chooses to sell whoppers (Burger King fare) he is in violation of the franchise agreement. Does McDonalds (BSA) fire him? No, the franchise owner (CO) may. The manager is serving the whims of his boss who may terminate him for any or no reason (that is the CO - SM relationship).

[caddmommy]

hummm.....

 

I know the boys are suppose to pick the leaders but in our troop the SM does and it seems to be working pretty good. All the boys who need positions for advancement are covered and there is nolonger a popular boys group who had all the high postions. Under the old SM leadership, my son was in this Troop a year before anyone relized he needed a position for advancement to Star which only came after the SM change. I cannot say that I am pleased with all the decisions he has made, but our troop is doing great. We generally have 95 to 100% participation in weekly meetings and scouting trips. Our CO rep backs him 100%. The other adult leaders have no issues that I know of with his leadership. The boys respect him. We accept him as being in charge and I think the Scouting Prinicples are being taught to the boys. The older ones are becoming fine leaders and enjoy working with the younger and new scouts.

 

He does, though, have his ASM and himself do the BOR.(HE does not do BORs for his son). I am CC but I have never been asked to join the BOR and neither has any other female committee members. I think I will look into this, since, I would like to be a part of the BOR process.

 

[acco40]

Caddmom, red flags should be being raised all over! First, SM and SAs should not be sitting in or even within earshot of BORs in their unit. Second, the boys should elect their youth leaders (SPL and PL) with SM approval only. If no one realized your son need a position of responsibilty for advancement to Star may I inquire if you use The Boy Scout Handbook? Does anyone in your troop read it? We sure hear some scary stuff on this forum.

[SR540Beaver]

caddmommy,

 

Gadzooks! Of course things are running like a well oiled machine in your troop......the adults are running it. Someone needs to tell your SM that this is a Boy Scout Troop and not a Cub Scout Pack. I'm sure the boys are advancing and learning. But they are missing out on many of the leadership and character building aspects of the program as it was designed. The boys are supposed to choose their own boy leaders. If they pick a stinker, they learn not to pick the most popular clown again and instead pick the most responsible scout. Part of scouting is adult association. If a scout needs a POR for advancement, he needs to approach the boy and/or adult leadership about what is available. It is not the SM's job to dole out jobs. You should insist that the SM and ASM's quit doing BOR's. Consult the BSA's Troop Committee Guidebook as well as the Scount Handbook and various other BSA publications. It is strictly a Committee responsibility. Very often a boy run troop looks like chaos to us adults. We want things to run smooth and be effecient, so we step in and take over. We rob the boys of valuable learning experiences and short change the program. An adult leader is their to provide safety and oversight, train the boy leadership and to allow them to learn from their failures so they can gain experience and confidence in leadership and character. If you or the SM have not been trained, I urge you to do so. If you have, I urge you to review the various handbooks and guides and begin following the program as designed. Your CO contracted with the BSA to run the program as designed, not as the SM sees fit.