LDS CHURCH ANNOUNCES INDEPENDENT ACTIVITY PROGRAMS BEGINNING 2020

[Hawkwin]

31 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I find it interesting that he speaks about a desire to have his grandsons become Eagle Scouts, but seems to preclude the possibility of his granddaughters following that trail.

For the LDS members on the forum.  When scouting is no longer the Church's youth program for young men and recedes to the same position in an LDS family that say a sports team, 4H, or similar extracurricular activity would occupy, would there be a church prohibition against a young female member of the LDS  joining scouting?  If so what would be the reasoning?

I have a LDS early adopter girl in my den.

My guess is that it will probably be regionally influenced. Those communities that have a high concentration of LDS will probably be less likely to have girls join but those communities that have a greater diversity of faiths will probably be more accepting of the idea.

[gblotter]

2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I find it interesting that he speaks about a desire to have his grandsons become Eagle Scouts, but seems to preclude the possibility of his granddaughters following that trail.

Simple. He realizes that girls in BSA is a radioactive topic and he is trying to avoid stirring controversy as he encourages LDS families to continue on with Scouting. Dahlquist doesn't want to remind people of more reasons to dislike BSA and their recent decisions (even while he himself helped craft those decisions).

Nobody should assume that having daughters or granddaughters makes one a supporter of girls in BSA. Nobody should assume that being female makes one a supporter of girls in BSA. I dearly love my wife and three daughters, and we all disagree with this decision to include girls. Can we leave the identity politics behind, please?

[gblotter]

3 hours ago, mashmaster said:

I will be interested to see how many join other troops in the area.

Based only on our troop of 30 boys, the crossover into non-LDS troops will be less than 10 percent. There may be some initial interest by Scouts seeking to finish off Eagle, but even that level of participation will wane within a year or two. Scouting among LDS families will be an esoteric interest like oboe lessons or fencing.

I can't speak for Cub Scouts - there may be more interest in Cubs for LDS families, but I doubt that too. Church activity programs keep LDS families quite busy - too many balls to juggle at times.

Very few LDS girls in our area participate in GSUSA, so I can't imagine why girls in BSA would be any different.

 

3 hours ago, mashmaster said:

In our area, the LDS troops operate much differently than the non-LDS troops.

Correct (and I'm talking about more than just the Patrol Method). The LDS integration of spiritual components into Scouting activities is intentional and enriching and unique. For example, scripture readings and teachings from church leaders are routinely included in evening campfire programs. Prayers are a common practice at every LDS Scouting function (not just saying grace at mealtimes). My experience is that non-LDS Scouters bristle in awkwardness at any mention of moral cleanliness and reverence and spirituality and even Duty to God (the general implication of their raised eyebrows is "how dare you raise such a personal topic"), while those things are central to the LDS Scouting experience. Take away those elements, and Scouting becomes just a camping club to many folks. I doubt LDS families would find support in non-LDS troops to avoid camping on Sundays. My son came back from National Jamboree last summer appalled that adult Jamboree leaders made no attempt to curb the non-stop swearing by Scouts - foul language was everywhere. I wish my comments didn't sound so self-righteous (apologies), but these are true and frank accounts. So yes - LDS troops do operate differently, and that's one reason why there will be relatively little crossover.

[bearess]

LDS troops also limit camping for young scouts, rarely have elected PORs for scouts, and are often known as Eagle mills.  There are many differences.

Personally, I think the partnership with the CoLDS has been a net negative for BSA.  I think their willingness to bend/change the rules for one group has negatively impacted the program, making it exclusive and divisive.  I think BSA will be better for this change.  For the LDS Church, I think it’s a loss.  

[gblotter]

48 minutes ago, bearess said:

LDS troops also limit camping for young scouts, rarely have elected PORs for scouts, and are often known as Eagle mills.  There are many differences.

Yep - no argument. Some, but certainly not all. My experience is that program quality varies widely between LDS Scouting units. I'd like to think that our troop of 30 Scouts can hold its head high when comparisons are made. Just next door is another LDS troop that is barely functioning and struggling to even maintain critical mass. Generalizations are hard to make.

 

48 minutes ago, bearess said:

I think their willingness to bend/change the rules for one group has negatively impacted the program, making it exclusive and divisive.

You have a strange perspective if you believe that LDS is the only opposition to BSA National on these divisive issues.

 

48 minutes ago, bearess said:

I think BSA will be better for this change.

In terms of program purity and consistency, I agree. The accommodations for LDS Scouting units will vanish, of course. In terms of the membership drain and financial loss, this is a huge blow to BSA - no question.

 

48 minutes ago, bearess said:

For the LDS Church, I think it’s a loss.

The replacement youth program from the LDS church has not even been announced, so such speculation is unfounded. Given that some LDS Scouting units have not been functioning well (example above), the bar is not that high for a replacement program to be honest.

Edited August 24, 2018 by gblotter

[The Latin Scot]

Wow, there are a lot of false claims in here by a lot of people with misperceptions! As a lifelong LDS Scouter (*since Wolves in 1993!) let me correct some of the mistaken ideas thrown out today. Mind you, what you may think is a loss for us will only be replaced by something better. It's the BSA that is losing by changing the very fabric of its nature, as time will eventually prove. 

So! Some facts.

- Yes, we limit camping for young Scouts. You list this as though it were a negative, but we do not believe that is so. When a child is "ready" or not for any given experience is not something you can state objectively; you may feel that younger children should be out camping earler, but that gives you no right to expect others to feel the same. We feel 6 - 10 years old is still to young. You can't fault us for that belief without allowing others to fault you for whatever yours are.

- We believe in a Church led by inspiration, with leaders called by that same revelation given to ordained leaders. Scouting within the Church falls under that same system of inspiration; boys are chosen as leaders by the local Bishopric, with counsel taken from the Scout leaders and the Primary/Young Men's leaders (depending on the age of the boys). This is how the entire church operate, and we believe it allows many boys to serve and develop key virtues that popular election might not otherwise afford them. If others believe in choosing their leaders differently that is their priviledge that we will fight to protect, but we see no need to follow the same practice.

- We are often known as "Eagle Mills" because we as a religion believe strongly in personal achievement, self-development, and community support. Any Scout in an LDS unit has an entire congregation of adults supporting him, encouraging him, and loving him into doing his best, so the high number of Eagle Scouts we produce is not a reflection of "getting lots of awards," but rather of "building lots of young souls." 

As far as girls in Scouting goes, you all need to understand that we believe that boys and girls are fundamentally different, and that gender is an eternal part of identity - a girl always has, and always will be, female, and a boy always has, and always will be, male. This cannot be changed. As a result, boys and girls learn differently, and we do not believe the Scouting model works for girls as it works for boy, because girls are different. So of course you won't hear us talking about our daughters and granddaugthers becomgin Scouts, because most of us have no desire to see that happen. I have four nieces from three different sisters, all of whom grew up surrounded by the Scouting adventures of their three Eagle Scout brothers and a very involved Scouter Mom. NONE of them have any desire to put their girls in Scouting, and are more than content with the wonderful programs the church already has specifically designed for the needs and development of young women. They don't NEED Scouting for their girls because we already have programs for them. So the point is moot for most LDS families.

This article may enlighten you as to how things are with the BSA and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/03/23/truth-lds-scouting/

[T2Eagle]

13 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

 

As far as girls in Scouting goes, you all need to understand that we believe that boys and girls are fundamentally different, and that gender is an eternal part of identity - a girl always has, and always will be, female, and a boy always has, and always will be, male. This cannot be changed. As a result, boys and girls learn differently, and we do not believe the Scouting model works for girls as it works for boy, because girls are different. So of course you won't hear us talking about our daughters and granddaugthers becomgin Scouts, because most of us have no desire to see that happen. I have four nieces from three different sisters, all of whom grew up surrounded by the Scouting adventures of their three Eagle Scout brothers and a very involved Scouter Mom. NONE of them have any desire to put their girls in Scouting, and are more than content with the wonderful programs the church already has specifically designed for the needs and development of young women. They don't NEED Scouting for their girls because we already have programs for them. So the point is moot for most LDS families.

This article may enlighten you as to how things are with the BSA and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/03/23/truth-lds-scouting/

So this is the part I'm trying to understand, not criticize, just understand.  As a Catholic, serving in a Catholic unit, Scouting is a youth ministry for our parish, but not THE youth ministry.  In terms of faith development there are more important ministries for the proper formation of our youth, either direct Catholic education within a Catholic school, or Catholic education through the parish for those students who attend public schools.  This is an inchoate description, but I'm really just trying to get at the point that scouting is a sort of secondary youth ministry and not, as I understand it is with the LDS today, the primary youth ministry.

So, after 2019, youth in the LDS will have a new primary program.  As the video above says and hopes, some LDS will continue in scouting and it will be for them much closer to the thing it is for my scouts.  Under those circumstances, will there be a Church defined discouragement for girls to join the program?  And as a secondary question, what is it about the Scouts BSA model as its supposed to be run: a single gender, outdoor based, character and citizenship development program, that would make it inappropriate for young women to participate in?

[gblotter]

27 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

Under those circumstances, will there be a Church defined discouragement for girls to join the program?

Certainly no church prohibition for girls in BSA. The church does not prohibit participation in GSUSA, either. Sunday collisions with scheduling of Scouting events in a non-LDS troop may surface as an issue, however. Our son avoids many sports teams for the same reason. But that is a separate issue that affects both girls and boys.

 

27 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

what is it about the Scouts BSA model as its supposed to be run: a single gender, outdoor based, character and citizenship development program, that would make it inappropriate for young women to participate in?

Boys are different than girls - period. Boys learn differently and develop differently than girls - period. If this is not obvious, then let's just end the discussion here.

My son faces this reality on a daily basis at school where his behavior and performance is constantly held up to the girl standard. In Scouting, he was free to be a boy among boys - but no more starting February 2019. BSA is not proposing a single-gender program. Except for an individual unlinked troop, every BSA program at the district, council, and national level will be co-ed. Tell me where is the single-gender program? Imagine next summer at BSA camps. You have 11-13 year old boys and 11-13 year old girls sitting in the same merit badge classes. Which group do you think will be focused and attentive, and which group do you think will be rowdy and distracted? As in school, the boys will come under that same spotlight and questioned about why they can't behave like all those wonderful girls. Unlike school, the boys have an easy option to quit a Scouting program that it is no longer tailored to their needs. How is this not obvious to everyone? I will exit Scouting with the LDS church, so my opinions are not important for BSA's future - not worth the energy to argue these points.

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by gblotter

[bearess]

LatinScot, I appreciate you taking the time to answer.  I understand the basics of the LDS beliefs.  My comment was in response to those who said LDS units are run differently— to me, Troop leaders and camping are big differences.  I understand the LDS method is based on your beliefs.  I happen to disagree, but that’s neither here nor there.  

As gblotter said, the departure of LDS will result in greater program fidelity.  I’d say that the fact that such significant changes to BSA had to be made for LDS units means the program was never a great fit.  

[gblotter]

2 minutes ago, bearess said:

I’d say that the fact that such significant changes to BSA had to be made for LDS units means the program was never a great fit.

For many decades, the Scouting program was a wonderful fit for LDS boys. It is BSA  - not the church that has changed in its values and focus. Thus, the program is not the great fit now that it was for so very long. It makes many of us LDS Scouters and Scouting families very sad.

Watch this inspiring video produced by the church just a few years ago to commemorate the 100 year partnership between LDS and BSA. Then tell me that Scouting was never a great fit.

 

[HashTagScouts]

In respect to those who don't agree with the "changes" the CoLDS made to the program as they administer it, I would submit that one should be careful when generalizing.  I am being very transparently objective when I say that conservatively 50% of the troops in my council are adult lead, not youth lead.  Several troops around me appoint the SPL, he is not elected.  Many have annual PLC planning meetings, but the Scouts are only able to select the events for a few campouts, the adults dictate the others.  Some other troops I know do not even have PLC meetings, let alone annual planning meetings.  I also could rattle off about 8 troops that do not have their Scouts cook for themselves, the adults do all the cooking on their campouts.  The point here is do not assume that because your non-CoLDS unit follows the BSA's program as National states it should be, that all others do the same.  Fidelity in non-CoLDS does not exist.

In respect o comments that CoLDs units are "Eagle mills", I will submit you that the retention rate to age 18 among the CoLDS units I know of are MUCH higher than the non-CoLDS units, so the numbers reaching Eagle are higher, but by natural course that the youth are sticking around longer., not because the program is different.    

[LVAllen]

2 hours ago, gblotter said:

Certainly no church prohibition for girls in BSA. The church does not prohibit participation in GSUSA, either. Sunday collisions with scheduling of Scouting events in a non-LDS troop may surface as an issue, however. Our son avoids many sports teams for the same reason. But that is a separate issue that affects both girls and boys.

 

Boys are different than girls - period. Boys learn differently and develop differently than girls - period. If this is not obvious, then let's just end the discussion here.

My son faces this reality on a daily basis at school where his behavior and performance is constantly held up to the girl standard. In Scouting, he was free to be a boy among boys - but no more starting February 2019. BSA is not proposing a single-gender program. Except for an individual unlinked troop, every BSA program at the district, council, and national level will be co-ed. Tell me where is the single-gender program? Imagine next summer at BSA camps. You have 11-13 year old boys and 11-13 year old girls sitting in the same merit badge classes. Which group do you think will be focused and attentive, and which group do you think will be rowdy and distracted? As in school, the boys will come under that same spotlight and questioned about why they can't behave like all those wonderful girls. Unlike school, the boys have an easy option to quit a Scouting program that it is no longer tailored to their needs. How is this not obvious to everyone? I will exit Scouting with the LDS church, so my opinions are not important for BSA's future - not worth the energy to argue these points.

 

I would argue that having scouts sit in merit badge classes is a much bigger departure from traditional scouting than the Introduction of females. Solution: more doing, much less passive sitting and waiting for information. But that would require counselors who are only teaching 1-2 scouts at a time, and that's not cost effective for camps.

[LVAllen]

4 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

In respect to those who don't agree with the "changes" the CoLDS made to the program as they administer it, I would submit that one should be careful when generalizing.  I am being very transparently objective when I say that conservatively 50% of the troops in my council are adult lead, not youth lead.  Several troops around me appoint the SPL, he is not elected.  Many have annual PLC planning meetings, but the Scouts are only able to select the events for a few campouts, the adults dictate the others.  Some other troops I know do not even have PLC meetings, let alone annual planning meetings.  I also could rattle off about 8 troops that do not have their Scouts cook for themselves, the adults do all the cooking on their campouts.  The point here is do not assume that because your non-CoLDS unit follows the BSA's program as National states it should be, that all others do the same.  Fidelity in non-CoLDS does not exist.   

Ask Andy would run clean out of material if every troop followed the program. The fact he's been writing columns since 2001 should provide ample evidence for the above statement.

[Saltface]

What is CoLDS?

[gblotter]

35 minutes ago, Saltface said:

What is CoLDS?

I may be wrong, but I think they are referring to Scouting units chartered by the LDS church (CoLDS = Chartering Organization LDS). I think.