can a CO change the rules? if so, how far?

[David CO]

29 minutes ago, cyphertext said:

David, your organization sounds very unique...  here, a teacher does not tell the high school football coach how to run his team.  The football coach is the AD for the campus.  His staff are all paid coaches, not volunteers.  The field supervisor controls what happens in the stands, not on the field.  They are responsible for security, monitoring weather, etc... not interacting with the on field activities. 

Not really unique. It is not at all unusual for Catholic schools to have volunteer coaches. Some even have volunteer AD's. If the AD is a volunteer, the teaching staff often outrank the AD.

As a young teacher, I once had to pull rank on a volunteer AD (on an issue of athletic eligibility). The principal backed me up.

Naturally, a teacher cannot supervise or direct a school administrator. If an administrator is on site, I would expect him/her to take charge and have the teacher assist.

I think the sports analogy works better if the football coach is a volunteer. It makes the comparison to a volunteer scout leader seem more applicable.

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by David CO

[cyphertext]

3 minutes ago, David CO said:

Not really unique. It is not at all unusual for Catholic schools to have volunteer coaches. 

Naturally, a teacher cannot supervise or direct a school administrator. If an administrator is on site, I would expect him/her to take charge and have the teacher assist.

Pretty unique, as Catholic schools pale in comparison to the number of public schools.  Maybe not unique in the Catholic school world, but that is pretty small piece in the big picture.

And the point I was making is that the field/gym supervisor is not in charge of, and has no say in on field activities... coaches are in charge, as in our school system and those around us, coaching is a teacher position, not a volunteer.  Same teacher acting as the gym supervisor has no say in what the basketball coach is doing on the court.

[David CO]

3 minutes ago, cyphertext said:

Pretty unique, as Catholic schools pale in comparison to the number of public schools.  Maybe not unique in the Catholic school world, but that is pretty small piece in the big picture.

And the point I was making is that the field/gym supervisor is not in charge of, and has no say in on field activities... coaches are in charge, as in our school system and those around us, coaching is a teacher position, not a volunteer.  Same teacher acting as the gym supervisor has no say in what the basketball coach is doing on the court.

That is true. There aren't nearly as many Catholic schools as there are public schools. But then again, it would be extremely unusual for a public high school to charter a scout unit. It almost never happens.

I think the analogy works better for a private school, since they are far more likely (than public schools) to have volunteer coaches and/or volunteer scout leaders.

 

[perdidochas]

10 hours ago, David CO said:

Would you really want to put a student/scout in that situation? You would be telling him to openly defy a teacher. There could be consequences for something like that.

I wonder how would you explain it to the parent of a boy if he got suspended from school (or just scouting) for disobeying and defying a teacher.

 

Unless the teacher has a position in Scouting, IMHO, he has no say in what happens at a Scout meeting, even if he is part of the CO. 

[cyphertext]

3 minutes ago, David CO said:

That is true. There aren't nearly as many Catholic schools as there are public schools. But then again, it would be extremely unusual for a public high school to charter a scout unit. It almost never happens.

I think the analogy works better for a private school, since they are far more likely (than public schools) to have volunteer coaches and/or volunteer scout leaders.

 

Not really...  I was a volunteer with my son's JROTC unit.  A parent volunteer.  I didn't answer to any / all teachers either.  If a teacher didn't like what I was doing with the JROTC unit, go take it up with the Colonel.  Unless Colonel or Sarge say otherwise, we are going to keep on doing what we were doing.

If this is a common occurrence at your school, teachers interfering with activities that they are not involved with, sounds like a bunch of folks are on a power trip.

What about the rest of my earlier post?  That seems to be pretty common here for units that are not chartered by a church.

[perdidochas]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

Once again, you are treating the Chartered Organization (and its staff) like it is merely a sponsor. The CO is not some outside adult or distinguished guest. The CO is the owner of the unit.

IMHO, it depends on the situation.  If a teacher from the COs school with no formal relationship to the Troop told my Scouts they needed to wash the dishes and do it this way. I would respectfully ask them to leave the Scout's alone. If the teacher told them to make sure that the classroom is left as clean as when the Scouts came in, I  would tell the SPL to make sure that happened.  I don't feel every member of the school staff to be the CO.  SImilarly, if it were a CCD class, and a teacher from the school (not associated with CCD), told the kids to do something, I would step in.  IMHO, that would be an easy way for YPT violations to occur.  That said, I am a parishioner in the CO that owns the Scout Unit.  

[perdidochas]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

I am sure that your wife and mother would tell you that a 3rd grade teacher is perfectly capable of supervising older students. All of our teachers have supervision duties, aside from their regular classroom duties, that requires them to interact with students of all ages. 

The principal would expect you (and your scouts) to obey a 3rd grade teacher no less than any other teacher.

 

I totally disagree, unless it's during school time. If I'm working with my Scout troop at 7 at night, I'm not doing what the teacher says blindly. If it makes sense (and it's in his classroom), I will do it. Otherwise not necessarily.  Again, if it's something like clean up the room, sure we'll do it. If its something like, don't sharpen the knife that way, do it this way, and his way is wrong, of course not.   Similarly, if I were a volunteer coach, and I had a busy-body teacher come up and try to instruct my players during practice I would do the same thing.  I don't know if the teacher has the relevant knowledge and training in order to safely instruct my scouts (or lacrosse players).  I'm not going to risk that.  

[David CO]

16 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Unless the teacher has a position in Scouting, IMHO, he has no say in what happens at a Scout meeting, even if he is part of the CO. 

It is up to the CO, not the volunteer scout leader, to decide who has a say in what happens at scout meetings. The CO owns the unit.

 

[David CO]

25 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Similarly, if it were a CCD class, and a teacher from the school (not associated with CCD), told the kids to do something, I would step in.  

It is up to the pastor, principal, and Director of Religious Education to determine who has authority over the CCD program and its participants. It is not up to a school teacher, volunteer CCD teacher, parent, or student to decide such things on their own. 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by David CO

[perdidochas]

5 minutes ago, David CO said:

It is up to the pastor, principal, and Director of Religious Education to determine who has authority over the CCD program and its participants. It is not up to a school teacher, volunteer CCD teacher, parent, or student to decide such things on their own. 

 

Then why do you say the teacher from the CO's school has authority to tell the Scouts in a  troop what to do, outside of school? It's a similar thing.  A teacher at the CO's school has no authority over the BSA units. Yes, the Pastor and the COR have that ability, but not simply a school teacher. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by perdidochas

[perdidochas]

15 minutes ago, David CO said:

It is up to the CO, not the volunteer scout leader, to decide who has a say in what happens at scout meetings. The CO owns the unit.

 

A teacher is not the CO.  If you were talking the COR, principal or pastor, I would agree. I wouldn't agree that the teacher has any authority over the BSA unit.  Makes no sense, and it sounds dangerous to me, in terms of YPT. 

[David CO]

32 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Then why do you say the teacher from the CO's school has authority to tell the Scouts in a  troop what to do, outside of school? It's a similar thing.  A teacher at the CO's school has no authority over the BSA units. Yes, the Pastor and the COR have that ability, but not simply a school teacher. 

...because the parish/school policy says so.

This whole part of the conversation started because I commented that my school gives broad authority to its teachers (and certain other staff) to supervise and direct students and volunteers. The teachers did not usurp this authority. It was given to them.

There has been a lot of splitting-off in this conversation. It started out with a question of whether or not a cub master can be given authority over the boy scouts in a unit with the same CO.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by David CO

[ParkMan]

7 minutes ago, David CO said:

...because the parish/school policy says so.

This whole part of the conversation started because I commented that my school gives broad authority to its teachers (and certain other staff) to supervise and direct students and volunteers. The teachers did not usurp this authority. It was given to them.

 

Very fair.  I do get that there are different styles out there in the world.  Apologies if I seemed critical.  What you describe is unusual me and I was just surprised enough that I kept thinking something was getting lost in our exchange.

My abstraction would be this:
- The COR and IH provide direction to the unit on how it should conduct the program.  They also set the rules for how the unit interacts with the larger CO.
- It is possible that the COR, IH, or even the IH's managers extend that authority to others in the organization of the CO. 

Basically, the IH could say - let every teacher have complete authority over every aspect of your program.  I don't think that's typical - even in cases where there is an engaged CO.  But, I don't doubt it happens.

Within the way the BSA is setup, that is legitimate.  However, if the CO begins to change the fundamentals of the program, and almost certainly if the CO does anything to contradict YPT or Guide to Safe Scouting rules - the council or national have the right to revoke the charter and to remove volunteers from the program.

[DuctTape]

I do not think volunteer vs paid makes any difference. The CO put certain people in charge of certain activities, whether they are compensated with $ or smiles should make no difference. When I am teaching a class, other teachers defer to me. There is no "pulling rank". I was put in charge of that class and thus have the authority. I would not interfere with another teacher's class as I walk by the room. I think what bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the "pulling rank" and "i am the boss of you" mentality. I do not model this with the scouts or others. Frankly it is a dangerous way to operate. I know some disagree, and that is their perogative.

[David CO]

15 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

 

- It is possible that the COR, IH, or even the IH's managers extend that authority to others in the organization of the CO. 

 

Exactly. That is a very good way to summarize the question at the heart of this thread.