Ad hoc girl patrols formed and compete in camporee

[Tampa Turtle]

6 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

On what basis? BSA can now legally completely exclude girls. We are both legally separate and legally unequal. Allowing girls to join and have their own program doesn't open us to any more liability on that issue than we have today (which is none). If girls have their own program and can be in OA (or a female version of such) as well as obtain Eagle, then what do you think is not equal about that? I don't see any court trying to tell BSA that they "have to be completely coed" and I also don't see BSA simply rolling over on their back at the first sign that someone wants otherwise. BSA has too many religious COs that simply would not be onboard with such forced inclusion.

Legally yes. The Court of Public Opinion no. BSA will fold on the Linked Troop concept at the first mumble of law suit. Somebody will complain that having to start a completely new unit when their is a perfectly functional unit at the same CO is an unreasonable standard. It does not have to be right. As long as YPT is covered National won't stand the negative PR. 

My CO wanted to stay all boy but fears the PR as well so will wait and see. 

But we do not have to argue. It will be resolved in less than 18 months. Surely I am not the only one who sees this?

[qwazse]

31 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

... As a unit our goal (hope) is to stay as we are and provide the program and outdoor experience to the young men in our community.  The concern is whether we will be allowed to maintain that course.  Current input is yes we will, but the track record from National speaks differently as what is good today, may not be tomorrow.  While within uncertainty there is always opportunity, there is also unease.

I definitely understand the shifting sands feeling.

Edited April 30, 2018 by qwazse

[Tampa Turtle]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

The scouter who you mentioned, was his troop looking forward to welcoming girls?

1/3 opposed strongly. 1/4 strong yes and intending to bring girls. Remainder unaware or drifting away. That is my guess. We have had 4 girl inquiries.

[Jameson76]

9 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Legally yes. The Court of Public Opinion no. BSA will fold on the Linked Troop concept at the first mumble of law suit. Somebody will complain that having to start a completely new unit when their is a perfectly functional unit at the same CO is an unreasonable standard. It does not have to be right. As long as YPT is covered National won't stand the negative PR. 

My CO wanted to stay all boy but fears the PR as well so will wait and see. 

But we do not have to argue. It will be resolved in less than 18 months. Surely I am not the only one who sees this?

Over under is much sooner.  I would say that as the first girls could go into Scouts late summer and/or fall of 2019, then the current Webelos Den 2 girls (and as "thousands are flocking" there are likely some) will want to visit troops in about 6 months.  That is when the initial uproar will happen.  "What do you mean this really active troop that my daughter want to join is boy only??" and  "we had separate dens in the pack, why not separate patrols??"  Likely not everywhere or in every council but I bet enough to be a trend

BSA National will roll over like a mobile home in a tornado...a survey will be done...boom COED

 

[Tampa Turtle]

6 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

like a mobile home in a tornado...

Good line. I agree. It will create some hurt feelings, but I agree.

[qwazse]

Just now, Tampa Turtle said:

1/3 opposed strongly. 1/4 strong yes and intending to bring girls. Remainder unaware or drifting away. That is my guess. We have had 4 girl inquiries.

In that environment, any change would fail in a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of way.

I would guide the 4 girls to find a 5th and form a different troop refer them to the 1/4 "strong yes" for their pool of leaders. Have the CO determine if they can handle this "linked" unit, or if it would be better off to have an independent sponsor.

We had a minority strongly opposed to whatever I was doing with Venturing and blowing smoke in the CoR's face about it. It took a while to figure out that they were actually a very small minority. (Some parents switched to being in favor of the thing after discussion with their boys. Or, being impressed by the behavior of our girls.) But, if the reverse were true, relocating the crew to a different CO would have been a no-brainer.

[Tampa Turtle]

34 minutes ago, qwazse said:

In that environment, any change would fail in a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of way.

I would guide the 4 girls to find a 5th and form a different troop refer them to the 1/4 "strong yes" for their pool of leaders. Have the CO determine if they can handle this "linked" unit, or if it would be better off to have an independent sponsor.

We had a minority strongly opposed to whatever I was doing with Venturing and blowing smoke in the CoR's face about it. It took a while to figure out that they were actually a very small minority. (Some parents switched to being in favor of the thing after discussion with their boys. Or, being impressed by the behavior of our girls.) But, if the reverse were true, relocating the crew to a different CO would have been a no-brainer.

Yes, I agree. Some of the moms very very strong about it and ex or current GSUSA leaders-I'd leave it up to them. I am sure the CO would be OK with it though the current Committee would do the heavy lifting. More critical issue is the older boys bailing out fast. Some said they were upset with the girl issue but it is mostly a program thing and watered down for new scouts. Same old story.

[cocomax]

Our new local GSUSA troop of 14 girls is having a hard time finding a mom or any female adult that will take the girls camping. They are running into the problem of none of the adult women want to have anything to do with dirt, bugs or lack of flushies. The girls are really wanting to go camping.  There are many of the girl's dads that would be willing to take the girls out camping and hiking, but unless one of the moms steps up the troop will be stuck just doing crafts and no outdoory stuff.

Our Boy Scout troop of 8 boys has 6 adult men (all registered and trained) that are taking the boys hiking and camping.  None of the boy's mom's have shown any interest in going on any of the camping trips, most make a point at the court of honor talking about how they dislike camping.

I have talked to moms that are excited about their girls joining the boy scouts so that the men can do the heavy lifting and take the girls out camping and hiking, but I think we would run into the same problem the GSUSA troop is running in, a lack of any outdoory adult female leaders.

. . .  and the boys all say they will quit if the girls show up. . .

 

[fred johnson]

1 hour ago, cocomax said:

. . .  and the boys all say they will quit if the girls show up. . . 

I fear boys reflect the adults.  Negative adults will create negative youth. 

[qwazse]

51 minutes ago, cocomax said:

Our new local GSUSA troop of 14 girls is having a hard time finding a mom or any female adult that will take the girls camping. They are running into the problem of none of the adult women want to have anything to do with dirt, bugs or lack of flushies. The girls are really wanting to go camping.  There are many of the girl's dads that would be willing to take the girls out camping and hiking, but unless one of the moms steps up the troop will be stuck just doing crafts and no outdoory stuff.

Our Boy Scout troop of 8 boys has 6 adult men (all registered and trained) that are taking the boys hiking and camping.  None of the boy's mom's have shown any interest in going on any of the camping trips, most make a point at the court of honor talking about how they dislike camping.

I have talked to moms that are excited about their girls joining the boy scouts so that the men can do the heavy lifting and take the girls out camping and hiking, but I think we would run into the same problem the GSUSA troop is running in, a lack of any outdoory adult female leaders.

. . .  and the boys all say they will quit if the girls show up. . . 

The most outdoor-oriented GS/USA troops are ones who have leaders in their mid-twenties (who are not moms), or they are leaders who already work closely with BSA and are translating the boys' program to their girls.

The problem of "play-it-safe" SMs (both male and female, but mainly the latter) is imploding a lot of BSA units. I have two young relatives who quit their troop because the promise of scouting wasn't being delivered. Last I checked they were playing gaga ball in a pit at a Trail Life gathering.

I don't blame boys who move on if 14 girls just "show up". The best-case scenario is one mom or older sister or retiree taking on mentor-ship with your best ASM. (I find senior citizens to be some of the most trainable people on the planet when it comes to this stuff.) The youth start their hiking/camping, inviting a former SPL/TG from among the boys' troop to help with basic training.

Any CO who can't deliver that, shouldn't start. Like the Good Book says, "Count the cost."

 

[cocomax]

On the bright side if we can find just one outdoory adult women to take on the leadership role in ether the GSUSA or BSA Girls I can easily find several men that can provide a lot of experience and support and we can get a girls outdoor program rolling.