Concerned About an Incident Last Night

[Eagle94-A1]

After I posted about the troop elections and how good it felt, Oldest relayed to me an incident with one of the Scouts who did not get elected. Long story short, The Scout ran for SPL, ASPL, and PL against my son, and lost all three elections. Now I noticed he was quite red in the face, and looked like his eyes were bloodshot after the elections and at the end of the meeting. He has a history of crying, and I thought that was the case. Apparently that was not the case. Son told me he was extremely ticked off, made some smartaleck comments, refused to shake my son's hand when he offered it, ignored the entire patrol, and  gave my son some negative vibes  the rest of the meeting that made him uncomfortable to the point that he is going to talk to the SM about the situation next week. He has not picked his APL yet, but Son told me he was encouraged to think about having this Scout as his APL. Son didn't respond to that encouragement, but told me and his mother that after the way the Scout treated him and the patrol after the election, if he is forced to have the Scout as his APL, he will quit the troop. And that action is not something he has considered seriously with all the previous issues he and I have had with the troop. I discussed the matter briefly with Oldest. Reminded him that the Scout is now at a point in his Scouting career where he needs a POR for advancement, and APL will not count. So if he is encouraged to make the Scout his APL, that would be a valid, and tactful way of appointing who he wants. Plus I think the conversation with the SM will help too.

In all honesty, my son ran for PL because he did not think the Scout would be a good PL. He is bossy, knows it all, smart alecky, and has not been dependable in the past. And I know many Scouts do agree with my son's assessment of the Scout because he has never held elected office before. In the past I have tried to talk to him,and it  is like talking to a brick wall. He only listens to his dad who is also an ASM.

 

 

[qwazse]

I think your son needs to decide if he wants to help this guy shed some of those rough edges, determine how he wants to do it (i.e. what he can stand), and make an offer.

When you run for office, you need to be prepared to deal with the good and the bad.

[Eagle94-A1]

After last nite, I don't think my son is interested in helping him anymore to be honest. This wasn't the first time something like this happened. They took martial arts together years ago, and something the Scout did then broke the friendship up and they went their separate ways. 5 years later, he joins the troop and their friendship apparently was renewed. I think my son was planning to make him his APL again, he was my son's APL the last time he was PL, but refusing to shake his hand and the way he acted afterwards changed his mind.

[The Latin Scot]

I am led to think of President Abraham Lincoln, who largely composed his cabinet of men whom he knew would disagree with him, and with each other, but who had sound and important virtues nonetheless. He learned to use their differences to his advantage, allowing them to offer up differing perspectives that made his final decisions much more informed and broad-minded than they could otherwise have been. Granted, it takes a mighty fine leader to work that kind of contrast into a valuable asset, but Scouting is all about making boys into just that kind of leader. 

Obviously, that's a lot to ask of one so young, but it's worth considering perhaps. It's usually the hardest things that make us into our best selves, and as I always tell my Webelos Scouts when they are most frustrated, "you can do hard things."

[HashTagScouts]

This Scout may not listen, he may even have a barrier that doesn't allow him to fully comprehend, but if your son wanted to "help" him, selecting him as APL might be a good thing.  Your son could simply tell him that he recognizes Scout didn't win, that he wants a POR to advance, and that this could be an opportunity to show everyone else he is a worthy leader.  APL is quite often seen as a "do nothing" position, but, I give PLs encouragement all the time to invite their APL to PLC's- they might only be a fly on the wall 99% of the time, but nothing stops the PL from having a debrief after the meeting with their APL and get their opinions or even ask if they would have voted differently and why, or if there was something else that should have been discussed that wasn't, etc.  That can be helpful to the PL and their growth as a leader as well.

[Gwaihir]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

In all honesty, my son ran for PL because he did not think the Scout would be a good PL. He is bossy, knows it all, smart alecky, and has not been dependable in the past. And I know many Scouts do agree with my son's assessment of the Scout because he has never held elected office before. In the past I have tried to talk to him,and it  is like talking to a brick wall. He only listens to his dad who is also an ASM.

 

 

and what does his dad, the ASM have to say about it?  Does the dad have sour grapes too?  

[ItsBrian]

This is coming from my own personal experience, so it should be somewhat helpful.

SPL elections came around, only 3 scouts were really “ qualified  “ to run for SPL. It ended up being myself and another scout. The scout acts the same way as you described the scout that lost to your son. I won the election and then I was told by a leader to make him my ASPL. I was like “Oh I’ll help him! No problem”. Turns out it didn’t work out as I hoped and I didn’t even want another leadership position after that. I beg of you to not let your son make the same mistake that I had made, since I bet he will not want a leadership position if he has to do everything himself without the help of a assistant.

Edited April 24, 2018 by ItsBrian
I sounded too harsh...

[David CO]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Son told me he was extremely ticked off, made some smartaleck comments, refused to shake my son's hand when he offered it, ignored the entire patrol, and  gave my son some negative vibes  the rest of the meeting that made him uncomfortable to the point that he is going to talk to the SM about the situation next week. 

Why?

This is the sort of thing a PL should handle on his own. 

 

[Oldscout448]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

Why?

This is the sort of thing a PL should handle on his own. 

 

If I were the PL. I probably wouldn't go to the SM. but I would absolutely talk with the SPL.  It sounds like Mr. Hurt Feelings scout is angry enough to cause some serious division in the patrol. If not outright rebellion.  The SPL.needs to know asap not be blindsided. 

[Eagle94-A1]

@The Latin Scot I would compare the relationship between the Scout as APL and my son as PL to Monty and  Ike. Monty tried to take over, tell Ike what to do, take credit for stuff Ike did until Ike one day had enough and reminded him that he was SHAEF and in charge. My son is pretty laid back, but one day did tell him he's the PL and they were doing things the way he said.,

@Gwaihir, I don't know about last night yet, but I know previous elections he was "upset" that neither his older son, nor this Scout has been elected to a POR. Older son has had the opportunity, but really doesn't seem to want the responsibility. In the past he was for term limits to "prevent the same people from getting elected over and over," and was one of the proponents of electing ASPL who moves to SPL. He was also for electing APL to move into PL, until I reminded him APL doesn't count for a POR and could actually hurt some Scouts, such as his son. That changed his mind about electing APL to move to the PL.

3 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

This is coming from my own personal experience, so it should be somewhat helpful.

SPL elections came around, only 3 scouts were really “ qualified  “ to run for SPL. It ended up being myself and another scout. The scout acts the same way as you described the scout that lost to your son. I won the election and then I was told by a leader to make him my ASPL. I was like “Oh I’ll help him! No problem”. Turns out it didn’t work out as I hoped and I didn’t even want another leadership position after that. I beg of you to not let your son make the same mistake that I had made, since I bet he will not want a leadership position if he has to do everything himself without the help of a assistant.

He tried helping him previously when he was last PL, and the Scout was his APL, but the Scout didn't want his help. My son is at the stage of his Scouting career that he no longer needs a POR, but he is too young to be an JASM. But when no one else was able or interested in running against the Scout, he jumped in. He had major concerns about the Scout being PL.

 

2 hours ago, David CO said:

Why?

This is the sort of thing a PL should handle on his own. 

 

and @OldScout448,  He dealt with it on his own once before. And things didn't improve. And the way the Scout was acting last nite, he has concerns about the Scout affecting the rest of the patrol. Plus there is the dad issue he is worried about. This is the same ASM who started to publically jump his case about doing things differently than what the troop has done when he was a Scout, but are not how things are suppose to be and I had to jump in. So because of the ASM dad, he wants to chat with the SM.

[Gwaihir]

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

@Gwaihir, I don't know about last night yet, but I know previous elections he was "upset" that neither his older son, nor this Scout has been elected to a POR. Older son has had the opportunity, but really doesn't seem to want the responsibility. In the past he was for term limits to "prevent the same people from getting elected over and over," and was one of the proponents of electing ASPL who moves to SPL. He was also for electing APL to move into PL, until I reminded him APL doesn't count for a POR and could actually hurt some Scouts, such as his son. That changed his mind about electing APL to move to the PL.

He tried helping him previously when he was last PL, and the Scout was his APL, but the Scout didn't want his help. My son is at the stage of his Scouting career that he no longer needs a POR, but he is too young to be an JASM. But when no one else was able or interested in running against the Scout, he jumped in. He had major concerns about the Scout being PL.

I'm looking at the vastness of Asia through a keyhole here, but from everything I've read it sounds like the CM needs to do some serious reflecting on his parenting... their lack of success seems like it's stemming directly from his lack of success preparing them to be successful. 

[Oldscout448]

30 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

@The Latin Scot I would compare the relationship between the Scout as APL and my son as PL to Monty and  Ike. Monty tried to take over, tell Ike what to do, take credit for stuff Ike did until Ike one day had enough and reminded him that he was SHAEF and in charge. My son is pretty laid back, but one day did tell him he's the PL and they were doing things the way he said.,

@Gwaihir, I don't know about last night yet, but I know previous elections he was "upset" that neither his older son, nor this Scout has been elected to a POR. Older son has had the opportunity, but really doesn't seem to want the responsibility. In the past he was for term limits to "prevent the same people from getting elected over and over," and was one of the proponents of electing ASPL who moves to SPL. He was also for electing APL to move into PL, until I reminded him APL doesn't count for a POR and could actually hurt some Scouts, such as his son. That changed his mind about electing APL to move to the PL.

He tried helping him previously when he was last PL, and the Scout was his APL, but the Scout didn't want his help. My son is at the stage of his Scouting career that he no longer needs a POR, but he is too young to be an JASM. But when no one else was able or interested in running against the Scout, he jumped in. He had major concerns about the Scout being PL.

 

and @OldScout448,  He dealt with it on his own once before. And things didn't improve. And the way the Scout was acting last nite, he has concerns about the Scout affecting the rest of the patrol. Plus there is the dad issue he is worried about. This is the same ASM who started to publically jump his case about doing things differently than what the troop has done when he was a Scout, but are not how things are suppose to be and I had to jump in. So because of the ASM dad, he wants to chat with the SM.

Ok, if the dad is jumping in then it's definitely a talk to SM. time.  

[David CO]

33 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But when no one else was able or interested in running against the Scout, he jumped in. He had major concerns about the Scout being PL.

I really can't blame the scout for being a little miffed if your son didn't really want the position, but ran only to oppose him. A person might take that personally. 

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

I really can't blame the scout for being a little miffed if your son didn't really want the position, but ran only to oppose him. A person might take that personally. 

Considering A) the announcement to change the election cycle from 6 months to 4 months surprised all of the youth and B) they also moved up the election a month so that the incoming  PLC can go through "training"  ( Not ILST but something an ASM is coming up with, don't ask not happy about it), several Scouts who had not considered running decided to run. Heck Middle Son was going to run unopposed, when someone said they would run at the last minute.

But from his actions, from the way my son was describing it, he was more than a little miffed. And it wasn't just at my son, but his entire patrol.

 

[David CO]

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

In the past I have tried to talk to him, and it  is like talking to a brick wall.

...or posting advice on scouter.com.

But since your son is resisting advice, to the point of him contemplating quitting the unit, you should not be talking about brick walls. There is more than one brick wall in this patrol. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by David CO