Would you say anything

[MattR]

2 hours ago, bearess said:

Sigh.  So son went to camp last week.  He had a great time, loved it.

I'm stuck on this. The boy had fun. If he had called Tuesday, crying, and said everyone kept laughing at him then, sure, it's time to bring out the nukes. Rather, the SM and another ASM had his back. Clearly we've identified that the ASM/old Cubmaster is a jerk. But this boy is dealing with it. He's a tough kid. I hope someone is telling him that. The same adult that keeps "grinding his gears" can't keep him down. This adult is just proving his own lack of character. The scout is honing his mettle. This certainly doesn't make what this adult is doing okay, and if he gets thrown out then so be it, but if this scout has the support of the other scouts and other adults then I'd ask him what he thinks. Since he says he wants to stay then so be it. Keep the support going. Some day he'll be able to fall back on this experience. Maybe some day this adult will yell at him and he'll just face this guy down. He might even say something un-scout like.

[WisconsinMomma]

Yes, but, this adult is not teaching the Scout Oath and Law.  He does not belong in uniform, and Bearess should bring out the nukes, i.e. inform the Scout Executive and ask for help to resolve the situation so no other kids are harmed. 

Tell me, why should this adult stay in a leadership position?  Give me a few good reasons. 

The kid appears resilient, but that does not excuse the adult's behavior.  

Edited August 1, 2018 by WisconsinMomma

[Ranman328]

4 hours ago, bearess said:

Sigh.  So son went to camp last week.  He had a great time, loved it.  But, the first day, I guess there was confusion about who was supposed to be carrying the flag.  Son was carrying it, he went to hand it to someone else and dropped it.  Oops.  Son was embarrassed, all the boys acted quickly to pick it up, everyone clearly understood it was a mistake.  Well, ASM/former Cubmaster was there and apparently screamed at my son in front of everyone until he cried.  Another ASM and the SM were there, they took son aside, calmed him down.  The other ASM called me about it once they got home.  Apparently they had a meeting last night (COR, SM, both ASMs) to speak to ASM about how he talks to the boys (yelling/humiliating).  I hope this will resolve it, but I’m doubtful it will.  Sigh.  I don’t know what to do from here.

I will have to say you have more restraint than I would have had and I commend you on that.  I am not sure this Adult is a good fit for Boy Scouts.  He should not be engaging with the scouts in this manner.  He should be going to the Patrol Leaders and have them forward information to the Patrols.  I think a discussion needs to be had about his son bunking with him on campouts.  How is this scout going to rank up.  So far as a Scoutmaster, I would not sigh off on any campout he has been on sleeping with dad.  As I tell the boys in my Troop, we all make mistakes.  If you don't make mistakes you aren't working or learning.  A great teachable moment about the flag and to reassure the scout that dropped the flag he did nothing wrong was missed.  Now there is a scout out there that will be looking over his shoulder and be worried about making a mistake so he won't get yelled at.  This puts this Scout in a difficult position and hurts his ability to learn to be a leader of his Patrol.  I would recommend removing this adult from campouts until he can be properly trained.  Just my two cents.

[mashmaster]

4 hours ago, bearess said:

I think all of that is the right thing to do/say— but it’s challenging.  The guy has a son my son’s age, also in the Troop.  So removing him as an ASM wouldn’t necessarily achieve the goal of removing him from Scouts—he’d still come to everything with his son.  Me going to everything isn’t possible- I don’t have the vacation time to go to camp and a weeklong summer trip (which they do every year).  I’m a Den Leader for my younger son, and those meetings overlap with the Troop meetings.

Here’s the trouble— my son likes Scouts and likes his Troop.  Any other Troop would be 15-20 minute drive, different school district, etc.  Removing him from the Troop seems like such a bad option— but letting him stay is no good either!  I do appreciate that the rest of the leadership talked to him, and I think the message was “If it happens again, you will have to leave”- but I do think they are limited in what they can do, as his son is a Scout.

 

Well if he isn't a registered leader, he can't go to most summer camps.  And the Scoutmaster should not allow him to camp with the troop until he proves he can act like an adult.

4 hours ago, bearess said:

I think all of that is the right thing to do/say— but it’s challenging.  The guy has a son my son’s age, also in the Troop.  So removing him as an ASM wouldn’t necessarily achieve the goal of removing him from Scouts—he’d still come to everything with his son.  Me going to everything isn’t possible- I don’t have the vacation time to go to camp and a weeklong summer trip (which they do every year).  I’m a Den Leader for my younger son, and those meetings overlap with the Troop meetings.

Here’s the trouble— my son likes Scouts and likes his Troop.  Any other Troop would be 15-20 minute drive, different school district, etc.  Removing him from the Troop seems like such a bad option— but letting him stay is no good either!  I do appreciate that the rest of the leadership talked to him, and I think the message was “If it happens again, you will have to leave”- but I do think they are limited in what they can do, as his son is a Scout.

 

Well if he isn't a registered leader, he can't go to most summer camps.  And the Scoutmaster should not allow him to camp with the troop until he proves he can act like an adult.

[MattR]

@WisconsinMomma, should the focus be on the scout or the problem ASM? There is a difference. If the focus is on removing the ASM and the committee hesitates then you're in the position of having to leave the troop. I don't think this is what the scout wants. If the focus is on the scout then he is asked what he wants and he continues to get support. Concerns can be brought up with the SM, CC, DE, SE but it's not the focus. If they go slowly or not as expected then while it might not be ideal it's okay. The focus with the other adults and scouts is on developing support for the one scout that needs it, not on removing the adult.

I've been in situations like this before and the parent that comes in telling me what has to happen and when it has to happen gets a lot less attention then the parent that comes in asking for help with their son. One approach is beating on relationships and the other is developing them. The other adults already know about the one ASM so making demands isn't going to change much.

In the meantime the scout is having fun and, believe it or not, slowly learning to deal with idiots. Again, he's a tough kid and what would really help him the most is having other scouts and adults validate his sense that what this ASM did was wrong. I don't know what happened between the SM and the scout but I suspect he is getting that support and developing a good relationship with other adults and scouts. It sounds like he doesn't want to walk away from this so he's doing okay. Yes, he was brought to tears by the one ASM but somehow he came back from that.

Again, I don't condone what this guy did, but, like everything else in scouts, maybe in this case it's okay to let it play out. Let the SM and CC deal with him.

 

[bearess]

Yes, thank you for articulating my feelings. I’m not thrilled by the situation, and if my son was upset, or didn’t want to continue, I’d be livid. But...he’s not.  What he took away was that, yes, ASM loses it and it’s not OK, but that other adults saw it and intervened.  He said the SM got him a sandwich so he didn’t have to go in the dining hall crying, said it was OK, that flags get dropped every year, everyone knew it was an accident. SM also told son he was “going places”, which thrilled son to no end.  

I’m doubtful, frankly, that talking to the ASM will be effective.  He has a long history of stuff like this.  He’s not changing.  He’s a SuperScout— Eagle, Wood Badge instructor, etc.  Getting rid of him, full stop, will be tough, and may not happen.  Focusing on that as a goal might not be realistic.  I don’t know.

[qwazse]

13 minutes ago, bearess said:

... I’m doubtful, frankly, that talking to the ASM will be effective.  He has a long history of stuff like this.  He’s not changing.  He’s a SuperScout— Eagle, Wood Badge instructor, etc.  Getting rid of him, full stop, will be tough, and may not happen.  Focusing on that as a goal might not be realistic.  I don’t know.

The position is Assisttant SM. If he ain't helping, the SM needs to tell him so. In this case the SM should request the ASM to apologize to each and every scout to whom he flew off the handle, admit that he had a short fuse, and promise he'll try to do better next time. If he doesn't want to assist the SM by doing so, no problem, he can take off the patch.

FWIW, I do believe that among men and boys, apologies don't necessarily come in words. Gestures of respect and kindness go a long way. But something has to happen so that these boys know this scouter, at the end of the day, has their back and wants to be less of a bully.

And to be double clear, I'm not asking any scouter to eat a different slice of humble pie than one that I've had to chew on from time to time.

[Eagledad]

18 hours ago, wdfa89 said:

not necessarily.  depends on the bad choice.  and you don't get to learn on my kid.  I really don't feel the need to provide another opportunity for someone to screw up with my kid.   and I really don't want that to happen to others either

I understand, thanks.

All of us here on the forum contribute our opinions based from our life experiences and personal principles. I have a lot of experience on this subject, and many similar reflections on this particular situation. So I'm not sure there is anything you could add for me to consider a different opinion.

I've been to many many camps. Upon reflection, I believe a camp director would say that they deal with more adult misbehavior at Webelos camps than Troop or high adventure. And, I believe they would admit that the adults they have to call down generally moms. The female biology isn't the issue,  the cause is lacking the experience of herding cats for several days in a row in dusty 95 degree heat and eating camp food. Like a good hot sauce, the stress is gradual, but eventually builds up to where the adult leader patience and nerves have been grated down to the nubs of their emotions. Of course men also loose control and have to reined back as well, especialy at the troop level.

That's not to say some of adults shouldn't be restricted from personal interactions with scouts. I have experience there as well.

And please don't consider that my response is flippant or without some thought. Quite the contrary, my opinion, like yours, came from a heavy price of many years dealing personally with adult behavior. 

I'm not trying to change your mind, I don't believe I could. I just suggest keeping an opened mind that there are other possiblities. 

Barry

[wdfa89]

didn't think you were flip at all and I have seen and recognize the power and utility of redemption, forgiveness, and second chances.  MattR has raised some very good points as well.  and I appreciate your perspective as well.  It really gets down to if one thinks a person has the will and capacity to change/reform and/or the faith the PTB will ensure corrections will be made--and if you have the patience to let that play out--hard to do when it's your kid for sure.  BL:  hope for the best outcomes but have a plan for the worst ones.

[perdidochas]

On 4/22/2018 at 12:40 PM, bearess said:

My son, 10, is a fairly new Boy Scout.  He is a patrol leader of a group of new Scouts.  Their Troop is transitioning to being more Boy-led— I know it’s important to the SM and ASM, and they are working hard on it.  He just went on his first camping trip with Scouts, and he worked hard to make it a success— and I think it was!

The issue is his old Cubmaster, who has a son in his patrol. CM and his son are very close, almost enmeshed.  CM grinds my son’s gears for various reasons, some of which are legit, some of which aren’t.  So, on the trip, the boys tented together—except for CM and his son, who tented together.  My son also made a “chore list” for his patrol, which had CM’s son and another boy doing dishes.   My son’s chore (cooking)  was done, and he was playing catch with another boy while dishes were being done.  Apparently CM came over to him and said “Mr. Patrol Leader, you can’t play till all the chores are done.  You need to go help with dishes.”  My son felt annoyed, felt that CM wouldn’t have said anything if it hadn’t been his son doing dishes.  CM does not currently have a role in the Troop, but I believe he will soon transition to ASM.

So... would you say anything to the SM or ASM?  Was CM out of line?  I wasn’t there, so I’m getting one biased perspective!  My son feels frustrated, like CM’s son always gets special treatment— which maybe he does, but that’s life!  OTOH, it seems absurd for a ten year old to eat/sleep with his dad, rather than his patrol.

If they have a rotation of duties, there's no reason that a scout who's not on duty should be working, unless there is a problem.  The CM was out of line.  Boy should be sleeping with his patrol. 

[scoutldr]

I don't care how many knots and doo-dads he has on his uniform.  He's not "getting it".  He needs to go.

[WisconsinMomma]

On 8/2/2018 at 11:35 AM, bearess said:

 He’s a SuperScout— Eagle, Wood Badge instructor, etc.  Getting rid of him, full stop, will be tough, and may not happen.  Focusing on that as a goal might not be realistic.  I don’t know.

 

Oh Gawd, a SuperScout.  I feel bad for you.  But, hey,  a guy doesn't get a pass on crap behavior towards kids just because he got an Eagle.   He doesn't have special privileges, he's supposed to be giving service, doh!   Have you had a talk with him directly and let him know you don't appreciate his behavior?  Maybe a little momma bear will help him wake up.   I don't mean an angry momma bear, but you can look him in the eye and tell him that his behavior is a problem and you need him to calm down.  The best way he can serve your son and the Troop is to give the kids some space to learn on their own.  

It depends, some Scouters hate women and won't respect a mom.  I hope he's not that kind. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by WisconsinMomma

[WisconsinMomma]

On 8/2/2018 at 12:19 PM, Eagledad said:

And, I believe they would admit that the adults they have to call down generally moms.

Barry

 

Barry, really.   This thread is about a male ASM losing it on kids in the Troop.  There are high-strung men and women who are a problem for the program.  Don't bash the moms. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by WisconsinMomma

[Eagledad]

8 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Barry, really.   This thread is about a male ASM losing it on kids in the Troop.  There are high-strung men and women who are a problem for the program.  Don't bash the moms. 

Bash? The thread is one person relaying an account of one adult loosing patience "once" on a younger adult in the troop who had fun and wants to go back. To turn this discussion into more than that is in my opinion an over reaction. 

In my post, I was just relaying some facts (truths) along with reasonable explanations of those facts. My example wasn't about you and it wasn't about women. It was a bigger picture description about a demographic of BSA adult volunteers who struggled under trying conditions.

My career is developing data, analysing it, and recommending changes for improved performance. Honest reliable data tends to show ugly truths. But it is required to implement the correct changes for maximum desired performance. I didn't even give any details in my examples, which are much uglier.

If you want the recent major membership changes in the BSA to succeed for the long future, you need to fasten your seat belt and accept whatever truths are required to make that happen. National has proven to be terrible predictors of future program performance, which forces reactionary corrections that are typically very messy. If membership isn't willing to be honest of the causes for program stumbling blocks, they must accept a bad program. I already have.

Barry

[TMSM]

On 8/2/2018 at 11:35 AM, bearess said:

I’m doubtful, frankly, that talking to the ASM will be effective.  He has a long history of stuff like this.  He’s not changing.  He’s a SuperScout— Eagle, Wood Badge instructor, etc.  Getting rid of him, full stop, will be tough, and may not happen.  Focusing on that as a goal might not be realistic.  I don’t know.

I would recommend that you speak up, talk to him and set expectations of him when it comes to dealing with your scout or all the scouts. Send an email if he is intimidating and copy the CC and SM. This is always the best first step - then you can put the onus on the SM or CC to deal with this problem.