Would you say anything

[NJCubScouter]

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

That does not mean the PL needs to wash dishes when he has already cooked.  He could help dry the already washed dishes; or he could help put away the dry dishes; or he could be checking out the patrol box and making sure it is in ship-shape for the next day; or he could be sitting somewhere with paper and pen and making out the duty roster for the next day; or maybe talking with the SPL about the program for the next day; or SOMETHING that is either helpful or patrol-leaderish or both.

I forgot one very important thing:  When the dishes are washed and dried and put away and everything is in order, and there is nothing specific scheduled for that moment, then everybody GO PLAY CATCH!  Or whatever.  Downtime is important too.

[David CO]

55 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I try not to make that request very often because it strikes me as being at least mildly obnoxious when other people do it

It is a bit more than mildly obnoxious. 

I don't quote BSA, but I often quote the CO's guidebooks. The way our CO is structured, any teacher at our school can discipline any student, regardless of whether or not the student happens to be in that teacher's class. The teachers act as a team. Likewise, any administrator can give a directive to any teacher (or other subordinate), regardless of whether or not the teacher works in that administrator's department. The administrators act as a team.

If a person is an authorized leader, appointed by the CO, in any unit owned by the CO, my CO would expect the scouts to obey him/her. That authority comes from the Chartered Organization. The CO owns the unit(s).

I would not recommend that any parent challenge the authority of the CO, or of any appointed leaders to whom the CO's authority is delegated. But since bearess has told us that the units have different CO's, it is moot point as far as this discussion is concerned.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by David CO

[David CO]

1 hour ago, bearess said:

Sigh.  Talking more to my son, it seems the issue is he felt CM picked on him all weekend.  Apparently he kept calling him “Mr. Patrol Leader”, which really bothered him.  For example, son forgot to pack a flashlight— which he should have remembered!  So he was asking another boy if he could borrow a flashlight, CM overheard and said “Oh, Mr. Patrol Leader forgot a flashlight.  Well, you won’t borrow mine.”  Now, I’m not defending him forgetting the flashlight— live and learn.  But I can see how, after a weekend of that, you would be frustrated.

What’s challenging here is sorting out what is good advice/helpful from CM vs son’s frustration at feeling picked on/mocked.

Your son is being picked on by an adult. I would drop all of the other issues and focus on that.

[CalicoPenn]

1 hour ago, bearess said:

Sigh.  Talking more to my son, it seems the issue is he felt CM picked on him all weekend.  Apparently he kept calling him “Mr. Patrol Leader”, which really bothered him.  For example, son forgot to pack a flashlight— which he should have remembered!  So he was asking another boy if he could borrow a flashlight, CM overheard and said “Oh, Mr. Patrol Leader forgot a flashlight.  Well, you won’t borrow mine.”  Now, I’m not defending him forgetting the flashlight— live and learn.  But I can see how, after a weekend of that, you would be frustrated.

What’s challenging here is sorting out what is good advice/helpful from CM vs son’s frustration at feeling picked on/mocked.

This makes it a little different kettle of fish.  Leaving aside whether the CM should have said anything to your son about the dishwashing and his playing catch (most of us are going to tell you the CM was wrong to do so unless it was an imminent safety thing or he was also an ASM but there is room for others to disagree ) - this is actually far worse.  The CM engaged in passive-aggressive bullying of your son.  

I generally agree that most of the time, a Scout should be able to approach their SM and work things out if there is a problem - but in this case my opinion is this is not one of those times.  Now that you have more of the story, you - as the parent - should contact the Scoutmaster and have a friendly discussion about what your son experienced at the camp - and I emphasize friendly.   It is quite possible that the SM and ASM on the trip knew nothing about what transpired.  This isn't a time to demand that they solve it, this isn't the time to be mother bear and growl at the SM a lot.  This is just a friendly chat giving the SM a heads-up of what your son experienced at the campout from this adult.  Then stand back and see how they handle it. 

As I said, I generally agree that Scouts should be able to handle things on their own - but I am also taking in to account that your son is 10.  As much as we would like Scouts to be able to take care of themselves - we're still talking about a 10-year old.

Talk to the Scoutmaster - tonight if possible - if you're bothered enough by this to post on this forum asking for advice, then I would think you would be bothered enough to have that friendly chat with the SM.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, bearess said:

Sigh.  Talking more to my son, it seems the issue is he felt CM picked on him all weekend.  Apparently he kept calling him “Mr. Patrol Leader”, which really bothered him.  For example, son forgot to pack a flashlight— which he should have remembered!  So he was asking another boy if he could borrow a flashlight, CM overheard and said “Oh, Mr. Patrol Leader forgot a flashlight.  Well, you won’t borrow mine.”  Now, I’m not defending him forgetting the flashlight— live and learn.  But I can see how, after a weekend of that, you would be frustrated.

What’s challenging here is sorting out what is good advice/helpful from CM vs son’s frustration at feeling picked on/mocked.

As Calico and David said, this is a completely different issue now. Definitely need a polite and civil chat with the CM. If things still don't work out then SM/CC need to get involved. I had to deal with parents resenting one set of Scouts because their sons have not been elected. I'm polite and courteous. But do not mess with my sons.

[qwazse]

As I said earlier, parents shouldn't approach the CM directly unless they're friends.

 The SM/ASM would like to know what happened.  Ideally the scout would be comfortable telling one or the other of them. But, given his age, a parent-report might have to do. 

[fred johnson]

I don't think it's unreasonable at all for a parent to pass a mild comment to the committee chair or the scoutmaster.  On the flip side, don't insert yourself too much.  They probably saw what happened and are trying to figure out themselves what should be done.

[ParkMan]

As a CC, I'd welcome a phone call from a parent.  Here we have a concern from one parent about bullying by another patent.  It may be something, it may be a misunderstanding.  But, I would want to know.

I have pretty good relationships with the SM and ASMs.  It's easy for me to ask around and see what people think.

[David CO]

Adults travel in pairs. What did the other adult say about all this?

[Eagle94-A1]

Upon reflection, go to the SM and/or CC.

I was thinking of the situation my oldest was in a few months back where one of the ASMs was "commenting" on his performance as SPL in front of several Scouts and adults.1) Praise in public and criticize in private and 2) what was being commented on may be what the troop has done but is not how things are suppose to be done. Thankfully SM was there and broke up the "conversation" between the ASM and my son, and between the two of us.

Thinking about it, CM seems to be jealous that your son was thought highly enough by his peers to be PL and not his son.I'm in the same situation. The ASM above is jealous that my oldest has been elected to both PL and SPL 2 times each now, but his sons have not held elected office yet. Keeps commenting about how his oldest will be the first Eagle he knows of to never hold SPL. And it is going to get interesting tonite. His younger son is running for SPL, ASPL, and PL. He was running unopposed for PL, and about to be automatically named PL, when my son jumped in the race because he feels the Scout is not ready for the job. Knowing the ASM, he's ticked.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Eagle94-A1

[blw2]

yeah, everything I'm reading here points to a very adult involved situation.  as an example, most likely the CM and other adults should not have been in ear shot for the most part, to hear son asking to borrow flashlight.

It's not for any adult to barge in managing, directing, or correcting about clean before play.... maybe a nudge or coaching a bit but....

small troop, two patrols and one of them is a patrol of new scouts

and that patrol of new scouts is somehow lead by the old cubmaster...... yep 3rd year WEBELOS it sounds to be.

[NJCubScouter]

20 minutes ago, blw2 said:

and that patrol of new scouts is somehow lead by the old cubmaster...... yep 3rd year WEBELOS it sounds to be.

Well, not really "led", it sounds like Cubmaster is just hovering around his son's patrol, which I'm guessing is mostly a misguided effort to make sure his son is happy.  And along the way, expressing his juvenile resentment of the fact that someone else is PL, in the form of snarky comments directed at a 10 year old, brand-new Scout/brand-new PL.  It also sounds, from the original post, like the actual adult leaders of the troop are TRYING to have their New Scout Patrol NOT be "Webelos III", but they are being undermined by this parent.

[bearess]

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

Well, not really "led", it sounds like Cubmaster is just hovering around his son's patrol, which I'm guessing is mostly a misguided effort to make sure his son is happy.  And along the way, expressing his juvenile resentment of the fact that someone else is PL, in the form of snarky comments directed at a 10 year old, brand-new Scout/brand-new PL.  It also sounds, from the original post, like the actual adult leaders of the troop are TRYING to have their New Scout Patrol NOT be "Webelos III", but they are being undermined by this parent.

Yup, exactly right on all points.  I’ve talked with the COR for the Troop quite a lot— we know each other outside of Scouts, his son is in the Troop too, he was the CM before this one, etc.  The adults in the Troop were aware this was going to be an issue (CM hovering), and they are working on it.  I have heard them correct him/interject many times— but they can’t be everywhere.  I think they are doing their best.

I did talk to the SM— he said that my son was goofing around when he shouldn’t have been, but SM spoke to him privately at the end of the trip and son owned up to that.  Fine, it’s a learning process!  SM said he’ll speak to the CM about his interactions.  So, a perfect resolution!

[DuctTape]

I would hesitate to believe it was resolved. It sounds like there will be an action taken (communication), but this does not guarantee a similar encounter will not be repeated. If adults were aware this was going to be an issue, past behaviors must have led them to that conclusion. Past behaviors are generally a good predictor of future. I would not be surprised if the situation repeated or even escalated. I would suggest having this conversation with the SM as a follow up so he can formulate a plan "for the next time."

[Gwaihir]

On 4/22/2018 at 3:51 PM, NJCubScouter said:

First of all, if the Cubmaster is not registered as a leader with the troop, he is not a leader in the troop.  It doesn't matter whether his pack shares a CO with the troop.  If he is going to have any "authority" in the troop (and let's leave aside exactly what that means), he is an ASM.  Otherwise he is an unregistered parent in the troop.  If the CM had a problem with something he saw (other than a safety issue), he should tell the SM and let the SM deal with it.

Which brings me to this: 

Leaving the CM issue aside, if I were the SM (or the SPL) and I saw a PL (particularly the brand-new PL of the New Scout Patrol) playing catch while other members of his patrol were still washing dishes, I think I would quietly take the PL aside and, in a friendly and helpful manner, suggest something along these lines:  Sometimes how things "look" becomes as important as how things really are (in the political world this is now called "optics"), and that even though he has completed his share of the "chore list" (which where I come from is called the "duty roster"), the Scouts in the patrol - as well as people outside the patrol - might misunderstand what they are seeing.  That does not mean the PL needs to wash dishes when he has already cooked.  He could help dry the already washed dishes; or he could help put away the dry dishes; or he could be checking out the patrol box and making sure it is in ship-shape for the next day; or he could be sitting somewhere with paper and pen and making out the duty roster for the next day; or maybe talking with the SPL about the program for the next day; or SOMETHING that is either helpful or patrol-leaderish or both.  I am not suggesting he should merely look busy, I am suggesting he BE busy - and in accomplishing something, he will also portray a leader-like image that will serve as an example to his Scouts and others.  I suppose that is a lot to heap on the shoulders of a 10-year-old on his first Boy Scout camping trip, but I think it's good advice.

Well said NJCS