Equipment Decoration

[Hawkwin]

I have been able to find only limited references to the term "Equipment Decoration" and what is included in such, like the 50-Miler, Paul Bunyan (and other skill-based patches), and the Historic Trails. What others would be included in this?

Is there an easier way to know what is an Equipment Decoration patch and what is a miscellaneous patch?

I ask because apparently equipment patches are supposed to go on equipment (e.g. backpacks and swim trunks) and not the back of the merit badge sash, as miscellaneous patches may. I tried the following but it does not clarify:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/Universal_and_Nonunit_Insignia.pdf

 

Would Outdoor ethics be misc or equipment? How about the National Outdoor Awards? High Adventure? Nova? Previous JTE?

[qwazse]

Who told you that equipment decoration was not a miscellaneous patch?

Typically equipment decoration is sized differently. It's usually too large to neatly fit on a shirt pocket. The classic example is the Philmont Bull. (Does that mascot have an actual name?) It would be stitched on the back of brag vests, on backpacks, some guys even sewed it on the flap of their tent. There's no way it would fit on a sash.

However, that doesn't mean that all equipment decoration should be disallowed on a sash. If the boy is proud of earning it, if it helps tell an important part of his scouting story, and if it fits, sew it!

[Thunderbird]

The National Outdoor Awards can be worn as a temporary patch on the right pocket, so I think it would be fine to go on the back of the sash (if that's what the Scout wants).

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2010/08/23/bsa-national-outdoor-awards/

The Outdoor Ethics Award (patch) is also a temporary patch.

[CalicoPenn]

Most of the answers are on the page you linked to.  Read the description fro the Nova patch and it states that it is worn as a temporary insignia on the right pocket.  The high adventure bases?  It says that National HA Base patches can be worn as a temporary insignia on the right pocket and Council HA Base patches are not for uniform wear (so its fine for equipment but not for a sash which is considered part of the uniform. 

JTE?  It states that only one can be worn at a time and only the most recently worn so if your unit earned JTE in 2016 and you're wearing a 2014 JTE patch, than you would need to remove the 2014 patch and put on the 2016 patch but if you won in 2014 but not in a later year, then you can keep wearing the 2014.

This page tells us specifically which patches can be worn on uniforms, and where, which are for swimsuits and where, and which are equipment patches - they're in the description of the awards - for most of the awards and patches.  Which ones doesn't it talk about?  The Outdoor Ethics Awards and the National Outdoor Awards.  It turns out those two are considered temporary patches that can be worn on the right pocket but you have to find other BSA sources to know that.  However, that page you linked to is from the insignia guide - and the guide does tell us where most of the patches they list can go so this is the best resource.

[CalicoPenn]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Who told you that equipment decoration was not a miscellaneous patch?

Typically equipment decoration is sized differently. It's usually too large to neatly fit on a shirt pocket. The classic example is the Philmont Bull. (Does that mascot have an actual name?) It would be stitched on the back of brag vests, on backpacks, some guys even sewed it on the flap of their tent. There's no way it would fit on a sash.

However, that doesn't mean that all equipment decoration should be disallowed on a sash. If the boy is proud of earning it, if it helps tell an important part of his scouting story, and if it fits, sew it!

The best I could find for a name for the Philmont Bull is Black Bull - but that could also just be a description of the patch.

The BSA insignia guide does say which patches are equipment patches (Paul Bunyan, 50-Miler, Historic Trails, Council High Adventure Base patches), which are to be sewn on swimsuits (mile swim, BSA Lifeguard, etc.) and which patches can be worn on uniforms (pretty much everything else - though the did miss saying where the Outdoor Ethics and National Outdoor Award patches can go - something they should correct since they were pretty specific about all the other ones).

Equipment patches and swimsuit patches can't be worn on the uniform and since the merit badge sash is considered a part of the uniform, they shouldn't be sewn on the back of a merit badge sash.  That being said, I'm not going to play uniform police and point out to a Scout that they shouldn't have their mile swim patch or their Paul Bunyan axe patch sewn on their sash.  I wouldn't even tell a Scout's Scoutmaster that the Scout shouldn't have that mile swim patch on their sash.  I'm simply pointing out what the policy is because someone asked.

[ItsBrian]

The online scout shop divides it between earned and something else.

[qwazse]

35 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

The online scout shop divides it between earned and something else.

The BSA insignia guide is intentionally broad in its statement about what goes on the back of the sash. It allows "Miscellaneous" not "miscellaneous earned" patches.

8 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

... Equipment patches and swimsuit patches can't be worn on the uniform and since the merit badge sash is considered a part of the uniform, they shouldn't be sewn on the back of a merit badge sash.  ...

Again, the IG does not say "miscellaneous uniform patches". Although I'm pretty sure most of us would frown on a boy sporting a biker gang's patch! (Unless they happen to be his CO  !) We want the scout to memorialize his scouting journey, so we encourage him accordingly.

 BTW. This is not a matter of policing. This is a matter of being prepared when a scout asks, "May I?"

Broadly, our answer should be "Yes, but safely."

With regard to uniforming, it should be "Yes, but neatly."

 

[Hawkwin]

11 hours ago, qwazse said:

Who told you that equipment decoration was not a miscellaneous patch?

Various official and unofficial references.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/Universal_and_Nonunit_Insignia.pdf

"equipment decoration, not for uniform wear."

http://www.scoutinsignia.com/tmppatch.htm

"Temporary insignia: This consists of badges, pins or other items which does not fall into the advancement, position or title, Jamboree, unit, personal achievement, service, tenure, aquatics, or equipment decoration insignia catagories.

...

Aquatics emblems (Mile Swim, Aquatics Instructor, Boardsailing, SCUBA, BSA Llfeguard, etc.) are NOT worn with the uniform and are NOT "temporary insignia." They are worn on the swim trunks/outfit of the Scout/Venturer/Scouter.

Equipment decoration (the large 4-6 inch emblems representing National High Adventure, training (National Camping School, Philmont Training Center, National Youth Leadership Experience (NAYLE), National Junior Leader Training, etc.), including the 50-Miler and Historic Trails Awards, along with the Paul Bunyan Axman Award and others, may be worn either on the backside of the red (or blue) jac-shirt or on personal camping equipment or blankets. Those items are not "temporary insignia" and therefore cannot be worn on the back of the merit badge sash or anywhere on the uniform. .

-----------------

There were a few more sites (didn't bookmark them) that basically stated the same thing as above.

[Hawkwin]

9 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

That being said, I'm not going to play uniform police

Yes, this inquiry is more for the sake of my scouts and what they should properly do and not for my own authoritarian desires.

[DuctTape]

This is new to me. We never used the mb sash for anything except mbs.

[Jameson76]

10 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

That being said, I'm not going to play uniform police 

[qwazse]

27 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

This is new to me. We never used the mb sash for anything except mbs.

Nor did I, nor my sons or any scouts I've met put anything but MBs on our sash -- not even scouts who I've told they could. So, it's probably a regional thing.

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

... unofficial references.

http://www.scoutinsignia.com/tmppatch.htm

...

Equipment decoration ... Those items are not "temporary insignia" and therefore cannot be worn on the back of the merit badge sash or anywhere on the uniform. .

@Hawkwin. the folks who wrote the Insignia Guide claim to be a very intentional lot. I once brought this up with Mike Walton on https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/03/21/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-merit-badge-sashes/

Quote

Me: Well, the insignia guide (and the wording in the blog) says neither "optional" nor "temporary", but rather "Miscellaneous patches may only be worn on the back of the sash."

Where is a scout supposed to read and learn that some patches he acquires are the wrong kind of miscellaneous for his sash?

Mike: I'll take this as a item for the BSA's Uniform and Insignia Task Force in a month and a half. I was unaware that the current Guide refers to "temporary insignia" as "miscellaneous patches". Temporary insignia may refer to insignia which is NOT BSA-specific.

For instance, a Scout may buy a patch from Mammoth Cave National Park and choose to wear that on his uniform pocket; or for the purpose of this discussion, on the backside of the merit badge sash. He may later visit with the rest of his Scouting unit an air base and receive a patch from the air base and decide to wear that as a temporary item.

Both emblems are permitted -- as long as the emblem is in good taste, displays no copyrighted logos or seals, and is designed for public wear and is not "restricted to those entitled to it".

So, his interpretation makes it clear that he thought equipment patches were not under "miscellaneous," but rather the guide was worded that way so that patches that would not be worn on a uniform could be included. Further down, there was some suggestion that more specifics might be in the next revision of the IG. That was four years ago. The IG's language has not been revised to specify "only temporary" or "only uniform" or "uniform-ish, but not equipment" patches. It still reads "miscellaneous."

I take that to mean that

1. The Insignia Task Force felt that this issue was not worth splitting hairs over, or
2. Mike was wrong, and the ITF thought it would be cool if some of the smaller equipment patches made it to the back of a sash, or
3. A correction is pending, but the ITF is holding off until they also need to add a page or two about skorts!

My take: I'm not gonna violate my rule #1 by asking for official clarification. So if a scout asks, I'm replying "Yes, but neatly."

[cyphertext]

So a Scout is supposed to wear the merit badge sash as his "trophy case" and be proud of his accomplishments, but they can't wear items such as their 50 miler award?  I can tell you now that my son is more proud of his 50 miler awards and other patches of that nature than he is of most of his merit badges.  Those awards were earned while he was actually out "doing" vs. merit badges that he earned.  They represent the things he enjoyed in Scouting, such as earning the 50 mile award and the BSA Historic Trails award at Northern Tier.  Or his BSA snorkeling award from Sea Base.  These awards are so much more representative of my son's scouting career than Personal Management, Family Life, Environmental Science and other classroom badges.

Guess we ran afoul of the uniform rules, because all of those things are on the back of his sash.

 

 

 

[qwazse]

22 minutes ago, cyphertext said:

... Guess we ran afoul of the uniform rules, because all of those things are on the back of his sash. ...

You not so much ran afoul of the uniform rules as followed official guidelines as written.

In so doing, you've undermined any authority someone with unofficial orthodoxies may have over your son. At best, they can speak from their humble opinion and then leave it up to him to make a decision that may shape future scouts for decades to come. The sewer has spoken.