New YPT declares corner ripping for Totin Chip/Whittlin Chip as Hazing?

[Hawkwin]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Don't want me to call your suggested practice thievery?

Huh? I think you have me confused with someone else.

[qwazse]

20 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

So you are saying that if a Tenderfoot is running around the campsite with his open pocketknife, after being warned several times about it, should be able to retain his knife?  Common sense to me tells me he should get it confiscated, and have it returned to his parent at the end of the campout. Not saying the SM or SPL should keep the knife permanently, but that for the safety of all it should be temporarily taken away.  

How do I know how many times the TF was warned?

• I might have seen him once passing by my hammock whittling recklessly ... told him to behave. He says "yes sir" ... and puts on his best behavior ... while he thinks I'm watching.
• On the way from his patrol site, the SPL may have seen him horsing around with his buddy, knife in hand ... told him to behave. He said "yes sir" ... waited till SPL continued rounds to next patrol.
• At his patrol campfire, the PL may seen him ... told him to behave. He said "yes sir" ... then took his buddy on a walk away from his patrol site.
• By his tent, an APL might have seen him ... told him to behave. He said "yes sir" then  ... went to his patrol campfire.

So, do the PL, SPL, or I

• Confiscate the knives of every single scout after every single infarction that I see? That would be a lot of knives/saws/axes confiscated.
• Assume this was a one-off until confirmed otherwise at after-action review with the PLC at cracker barrel, thereby allowing a day to pass with this kid likely to nick the hide of a young @CalicoPenn?
• Or do I ask to see the Totin' Chip cards of any fey scout to determine if this would be his first or his final warning? And, if first, clip and counsel appropriately. If final, ask if I should secure his blades until he and I can set aside time for an SMC to review knife safety.

Common sense tells me leaders should communicate. If you see something say something. The nicks in the card are simply a discrete way of saying it.

As always ...

Your mileage may vary.

[MattR]

19 hours ago, blw2 said:

Anyway, so he forgot..... what to do...rip that patch off his shirt till he relearns the knot?    no way.  That would be silly, right?

 

It would be. However, if, in the process of tying that knot incorrectly he could slice his hand open, or that of a scout nearby, then maybe not so silly. Cutting a corner off does involve a bit of pain but a little pain is a well known way of learning and a lot better than stitches.

All of the complaints on this forum about helicopter parents is really about not letting the scout learn from his own pain or not to have pain.

The real question is how much pain is the right amount. It's different for different people and a good lesson for the scouts is to understand that difference. Nobody can learn that if no pain is allowed.

It's bad when it becomes a power or dominance thing. That's when it becomes humiliating. Cutting a corner off a card is not that. It's no different than failing a test. If that's considered humiliating then we've identified a different problem.

[Hawkwin]

48 minutes ago, MattR said:

not letting the scout learn from his own pain or not to have pain.

Pain? Let's use a bit of hyperbole. Would it be OK to cut off the top of their socks as a means of keeping him from slicing their hand open? Would it be OK to make a scout cut off their shirt tail (the tucked in portion) as a means to keep them from slicing their hand open? Why stop at a corner? Why not cut up the card entirely into tiny pieces while everyone watches? What's a little pain between scouters if it keeps them safe?

If you and others can agree that there some actions that cause emotional pain and that would take things to far, then you have to ask yourself if any "pain" is appropriate in this situation. We should not be in the business of trying to cause pain. We should be in the business of trying to teach. I don't want to ever be a bully to a scout if cutting a corner when it doesn't teach anything feels like me being a bully.

[qwazse]

29 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

... If you and others can agree that there some actions that cause emotional pain and that would take things to far, then you have to ask yourself if any "pain" is appropriate in this situation. We should not be in the business of trying to cause pain. We should be in the business of trying to teach. I don't want to ever be a bully to a scout if cutting a corner when it doesn't teach anything feels like me being a bully.

@Hawkwin, this is not about feeling like being a bully, or a savior. It is about assuring that the scouts with cutting implements are sufficiently disciplined to wield them.

Can it get out of hand? Sure! But you're weighing a possibility of feeling hazed against the probability of harm to life or limb.

Handing a kid a partly-colored buddy-tag possibly could be bullying, but pales in comparison to the probability of drowning.

Neither buddy tags or Totin Chip teach anything per se. But both inform scouts something about themselves and each other. In the process, they enable scouts to set goals for each other. Goals that ultimately improve each other's character.

[Hawkwin]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

It is about assuring that the scouts with cutting implements are sufficiently disciplined to wield them.

Agreed.

So, can anyone tell me how cutting up a card (in and of itself) in any way creates discipline? Does a scout learn to properly use a knife the moment you cut the card? Are they automatically cured of their lack of discipline? Are they a safer scout now that they have a cut card? If not, then might there be more effective ways to teach discipline? If there are more effective ways to teach a scout discipline (if you still have to educate the scout after you cut the card), then perhaps the cutting of a card is more about the scouter and less about the scout. YMMV of course.

 

[Tampa Turtle]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Handing a kid a partly-colored buddy-tag possibly could be bullying, but pales in comparison to the probability of drowning.

 

Excellent point. I failed the swim test at camp and had to do an event with the one other boy who were partially colored "Beginners" (this was last year).

I think this one has jumped the shark. 

[cyphertext]

6 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Agreed.

So, can anyone tell me how cutting up a card (in and of itself) in any way creates discipline? Does a scout learn to properly use a knife the moment you cut the card? Are they automatically cured of their lack of discipline? Are they a safer scout now that they have a cut card? If not, then might there be more effective ways to teach discipline? If there are more effective ways to teach a scout discipline (if you still have to educate the scout after you cut the card), then perhaps the cutting of a card is more about the scouter and less about the scout. YMMV of course.

 

The cutting of the card shows that the Scout had a safety violation.  As I stated earlier, we gave them a little remedial training when the corner was cut to make sure they knew what they did wrong.  It was an effective way to remind them of the rules and knife safety, as well as let other Scouters know if the Scout had previous issues with knife safety.

I guess you disagree with having different color tags to denote swimmer vs. non-swimmer as well?  After all, anyone can see who passed and who failed the BSA swim test... and some Scouts are embarrassed by it.  

And as far as parents not complaining...  My wife and one other parent in my den were teachers.  If they thought that I was doing something to harm the children, I am sure they would have spoken up.  I asked my wife about this subject this morning, and she said it is no different that writing the child's name on the board as a warning for discipline in the classroom (or changing their color from green to yellow and red as they do now).

 

[blw2]

7 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

I had a hunch someone would try to compare pulling a Totin Chip until it could be re-earned with pulling rank.  There is a major difference - Totin Chip is not a rank.  The policies about once its earned it remains earned does not apply.  Totin Chip confers a privilege - though I like your idea of just coaching them and moving on.   I'd even suggest that Troops treat the Totin Chip like the Cyber Chip - let them expire every year - and have the Scouts re-earn them.  Someone who earns it at 11 could surely use a refresher at 16.  I also think that adults that are going to use knives, axes and saws in camp should earn the Totin Chip.  It shouldn't be all that difficult and the adults will know the same "rules" as the Scouts - I've seen more adults than youth violate the "rules" taught in Totin Chip.

yeah yeah, I know it's not the same thing..... it's an analogy.  It's similar.

And re-earning..... how do you like having to retake regular training...things you already know and have done several times before?  Not fun is it?

[an_old_DC]

This thread blows my mind. Six pages...so far?

How can it even remotely be considered hazing if the SM has a quiet conversation away from other Scouts, discussing why there was a safety concern and how it can be avoided in the future? Its a quiet teaching moment that ends with clipping a card's corner. Nobody else even knows the card was clipped.

 

[David CO]

3 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Let's use a bit of hyperbole.

This whole thread has been hyperbole. Why stop now?

 

[desertrat77]

So I had two corners cut off my totenchip when I was a scout.

I wasn't traumatized.  A little embarrassed, yes.   I learned my lesson and pressed forward, somehow managing to become a functioning, productive citizen.

What's different in 2018?

[scoutldr]

30 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

So I had two corners cut off my totenchip when I was a scout.

I wasn't traumatized.  A little embarrassed, yes.   I learned my lesson and pressed forward, somehow managing to become a functioning, productive citizen.

What's different in 2018?

Parents who want to shield their children from any failure or negative impact on their feelings.  

[Chadamus]

@desertrat77two corners for one infraction? Or separate?

[desertrat77]

Separate. The second I self reported.