Sheath knives

[Bob White]

Zahnada your concern over my reading comprehension is touching though unwarranted. I understood 2Eagle's post just fine thank you.

 

He advocates allowing the scouts to carry sheath knives even though there is seldom a need for them simply because the scouts think they are cool. I maintain that there are a lot of things that scouts need to learn about selection and use of tools, and that their "coolness" is not one that reflects good decision making on the part of youth or adults.

 

That's just my opinion. Eagle 2 shared one opinion, I shared another. You are free to choose which one you agree with but I have as much right to my viewpoint as he has to his, without need for your offer of intercession.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

If Scouts decided that carrying a percolator for coffee was cool even though none dank coffee would you prohibit it?

 

What if they decided that whoever carries the most toilet paper is coolest and one boy shows up with a 24 pack of double rolls?

[eagle54]

For whom it may concern there a while back an offical boy scout hunting knive.

 

I have know some scouts whom I wondered could use nail clippers without hurting themselves.

 

It is not easy to practice saftey.

 

The scout handbook does not have anything on a hunting knive. The material is on the use of a pocket knive etc.

 

Knives do a good job when used correctly but I did have to take a scout who is now in his late thirties to the hospil for a bad cut.

 

Utimatley it is the responsiblity of all of us to use camp tools safely.

 

It would be great if we could share tips on safety like keeping the knive pointed away from you. W

When passing the knive to wait until they say "thank you".

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

As a boy, I had a friend once that had a big sheath knife. It was really cool. I don't ever remember him using it for anything, but it was a really cool knife. When he was about 25 he bought a .44 magnum handgun with a 12" barrel. He thought that was really cool too. Then he grew up and figured out that it really had no practical use. "Cool" wasn't so cool anymore.

 

Moral of the story? I dunno.

[Fat Old Guy]

" When he was about 25 he bought a .44 magnum handgun with a 12" barrel. He thought that was really cool too. Then he grew up and figured out that it really had no practical use."

 

It has a very practical use, hunting. Also pretty good for metallic shillouette shooting. Maybe it was no practical use for him.

[Eagledad]

>>Tools should be chosen based on need and ability to do the job safely.>If Scouts decided that carrying a percolator for coffee was cool even though none dank coffee would you prohibit it?>I have know some scouts whom I wondered could use nail clippers without hurting themselves.>Moral of the story? I dunno.

[Hunt]

I have no particular problem with boys wanting things because they are "cool"--I think it's great that there are boys who think camping gear is cool. I also have little problem if they want something that is less practical or more expensive because it is "cool." So he wants the colorful Nalgene bottle, not the plain one, or a snazzy-looking backpack with fewer pockets than the plain one--OK. But I have more trouble with coolness trumping safety--thus, I wasn't so happy (just last night), when my 12-year-old said he's going to get a motorcycle when he's old enough because motorcycles are cool. As to the sheath knives, it seems to me that the knife isn't inherently bad or dangerous, but that improper behavior with such a knife is likely to cause greater damage than the same behavior with a smaller knife. That may be enough (especially with some boys I could name) to discourage the use of larger knives.

[Bob White]

Am I cool enough for scouts? HMMMMM, I can honestly say that I couldn't care less. Choosing an adult leader based on coolness is probably more dangerous than choosing a sheath knife for the same reason.

 

Being able to deliver a good, safe, fun and adventurous scouting program is more important to me and to the families I serve than whether or not I am perceived as "cool".

 

Allow scouts to decide safety issues? Absolutely. Train scouts to base those decisions on what is cool? NEVER! Train them to teach others to base their decisions on "cool". NEVER! Allow a scout to risk his safety or the safety of others to be "cool"? NEVER!

 

But thats my personal preference and I believe it follows the scouting program.

 

The PLC by the way are the ones that should be practicing and applying leadership skills. The adult leaders are the ones responsible for guiding and teaching.

 

"Wisdom has to have the appearance of experience. Otherwise it only comes off as self-serving, not wisdom."

 

I was aware the experience can develop wisdom and that wisdom helps shape your experiences, but please share what the "appearance of experience" means, and how it (whatever it is) can effect wisdom in any way.

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

I successfully resisted this for long enough.

I have personally seen a nasty cut as a result of a sheath knife thrust wrongway through the sheath. The perp and the victim were both adults. They were also married (this leads into a really good story, for another time). I doubt that this was the only time in history for this type of accident, but I could be wrong.

 

I think Bob White is being reasonable on this topic. His manner is direct and he is very stubborn...Not always bad qualities.

 

When I was a scout, I purchased an official BSA sheath knife and I carried it all the time on outings. I think I still have it in a box somewhere. Obviously they were OK back then (Sure, it was a long time ago). But a few years later, I stopped using it because it was practically useless for most of the things I needed to do with a knife. Furthermore, the metal was slightly better than aluminum for holding an edge.

 

To me, one annoying thing about sheath knives and similar items is that they seem to get lost fairly often and the 'status' they impart adds to the distress when we leave the lost item behind. I find quite a few Swiss Army knives on the trail, perhaps the result of a similar malady.

 

But once in a while this troop has a boy who feels the need to bring a 'survival' or some other type of sheath knife on an outing. I try to make sure it doesn't leave the sheath unless for an appropriate purpose and handled safely. I also apply this to folding blades.

 

I agree that sheath knives are OK in principle. But, like all sharps, they must be handled properly, safely, and for the purposes for which they were intended. It just seems that very few of those purposes ever arrive on our camping trips. And I think we have never had a serious injury. Except for the boy who crawled over a fire ant mound at night while playing a game, but that's another story.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Eagledad]

>>Am I cool enough for scouts? HMMMMM, I can honestly say that I couldn't care less. >NEVER! Train them to teach others to base their decisions on "cool". NEVER! Allow a scout to risk his safety or the safety of others to be "cool"? NEVER!> but please share what the "appearance of experience" means, and how it (whatever it is) can effect wisdom in any way.

[Eamonn]

As ever this thread has put my little gray cells in overdrive. There is a lot of stuff going on here.

I own a lot of kitchen knives, really expensive ones. They are tools and have over the years helped me earn a few bucks. Her Who Must Be Obeyed, knew that when we visited a commercial kitchen showroom that I would come out with some new toy. But even if it wasn't totally needed it was still a tool.

She went into an outlet mall the other day and while she was doing her thing I waited out side what turned out to be a knife store. The knives on display were the type that you see on the TV shopping channels. They looked like over sized fish with holes in. I suppose these are collector knives. I have no idea what you might use them for.

I have a few Swiss Army knives. A few with all sorts of extra blades and stuff. I rarely use the extra blades and stuff. Could it be that I bought them because I thought they were cool? The knife does what I want it to. So maybe half of it is a tool?

I own a couple of sheath knives. I never use them. I do remember that as a young Lad that there was something about owning one and wearing one that captured my imagination. I do remember using it to cut the odd rope and chop up the odd spud. I also remember using it to play "Splits." I think it has a different name on this side of the pond. You and a pal take turns throwing the knife in the ground and you put your foot where the knife enters the ground.Of course looking back this was a very dumb game and it didn't do the knife much good. I of course had been taught never to do this sort of thing. I was playing and the knife was a toy. While we never thought about it we could have used the cooking knife in the patrol box or a folding knife to play the same dumb game.

I think that times change. Baden Powell wrote a book on the art of Pig Sticking. I'm sure that as a young man the idea of jumping on a polo pony and sticking a pointed stick in a pig, might have seemed like fun. Today he would end up in jail.

So until someone can come up with an argument to make me change my mind. I am willing to strongly discourage sheath knives. I'm basing my decision on the Lords Prayer "Lead us not into temptation."

The other thing that caught my eye was that we came back to being "Cool." I suppose I have fallen into the cool trap when buying stuff.I only have to look at the extra stuff on the Swiss Army knives.

I am now of the opinion that Cool Leaders are not cool. Cool wears out. I have seen my son hero worship adults in Scouting who he has seen as cool, but it has always been a passing fad. Our Scouts don't want or need Cool Leaders, they will always come back to the Leader that they can respect. The Leader that they can look up to. The Leader that is following the program and doing his or her best to live the Scout Oath and Law. This Leader isn't trying to be cool he understands that "To help other people at all times." Has true meaning.

Eamonn

[willysjeep]

People have been saying that sheath knives are too dangerous to be allowed, right? Like when somebody said that coolness shouldn't trump safety. Could somebody tell me why you think properly constructed sheath knives in trained hands are more dangerous than properly constructed folding knives in trained hands?

 

The only reason I can think of why a sheath knife might be more dangerous than a folding knife is when somebody improperly wears it on the front of their body. Of course this is not the right or expected way of doing it. Just like it is not right to put an open pocket knife in your pocket. Both are equally possible, and equally dangerous. The only thing is that if you teach the proper way of carrying pocket knives and wearing knife sheaths in Totin' Chip both become equally improbable. It is possible for somebody to put an open pocket knife in their pocket but it is obviously dangerous to do so. It is also possible that somebody might wear their knife on the front of their body, but when you explain to them during totin' chip that if you do that and sit down the knife WILL stab you in the leg, I bet you wouldn't ever see that either.

 

You can't plan on scouts abusing everythign that is dangerous around them. If you did plan on everythign going wrong then matches, insect dope, and axes would be banned too. Just think of the mayhem that any one of these could cause if somebody decided to abuse them.

 

I feel that sheath knives are no more dangerous than a pocket knife when used correctly, and just as when they are used incorrectly.

 

While it is true that many pocket knives are more useful for camp chores than sheath knives, the same can be said about many items of camping equipment. Rarely do scouts ever have to cut up a piece of wood too large for a bowsaw, but because chopping it in half is more fun most scouts would pick up an axe for a big log. Because everybody with a totin' chip is supposed to be proficient with an axe I don't expect anybody to use one improperly.

 

I remember asking this same question over in issues and politics about a year ago, and I think i got pretty much the same two sides of the argument.

[Bob White]

"Could somebody tell me why you think properly constructed sheath knives in trained hands are more dangerous than properly constructed folding knives in trained hands?

 

Willy can you show us where anyone said they were?

 

[EagleInKY]

Funny, I was looking over our summer camp packet last night for the umpteenth time, and I noticed under prohibited items, "weapons (including sheath knives)".

[KoreaScouter]

Whoever said coolness is a passing fad was right on the money. In my line of work, big knives became very popular in the mid-80s, especially when the Rambo movies were big. The funny thing was, the troops who paid out of their own pockets for these mini-machetes never wanted to take them out of the sheath for fear of nicking or breaking them. Comical. I used to enjoy showing them how stupid it was to shell out nearly a week's pay for a knife by taking my issue USAF survival knife, sticking it in a round hole in the front bumper on an M-35 truck, and bending th