Sheath knives

[Fuzzy Bear]

I can remember vividly being a boy, especially that one day at Philmont. (*action-cyclone spins and memories fade back in time-strange music in background)

 

"John" a rich kid who believed himself to be cool had every Scout item that money could buy. He even wore a sheath knife on his belt. He was a practiced and proficient bully. Everyday on the trail, he showed us a new perspective on how to intimidate any of the younger, weaker, or smaller Scouts. He was a master at the art.

 

One day while we were camped at one of the base camps, I heard a noise in one of the large wall tents. It was John and he was at it again. He was facing off with a younger Scout and he had drawn his sheath knife. That something inside of me snapped and I knew I had enough of the problems that John had brought along on our hike. I pulled the Scout back and asked John politely to give me his knife. He not only refused but stepped forward with his blade pointed at me. I instinctively kicked the knife and it flew from his hand up into the ridge pole above us.

 

He shouted a profanity and stalked out of the tent. We didn't have any more trouble from John for the remainder of the trip. His sheath knife was turned over to the crew leader to be returned to John upon arrival back home. I don't know how I kicked the knife from his hand but it worked and it ended a reign of terror for many of us.

 

(Return from yesteryear-cyclone spin, weird music to present day) Why am I against sheath knives? Well, I know what a cool person feels about his brother Scouts and it is not generally being helpful. It is usually a sense of "power over" others and that is unnecessary.

 

Scouting teaches how to be really cool which most kids never have the opportunity to learn. Scouting teaches Scouts an understanding of the Oath and the Law. By most standards, that is not what life is about. Does it mean that all kids that carry a sheath knife want power over others and have not learned the Scout Oath and Law? Of course not, silly, but it certainly can be the road that is the easiest to travel for a young person with the propensity to take it. I would rather a Scout be focused on the important issues and a sheath knife is just not one of them.

 

FB

 

[Eagledad]

>>Of course not, silly, but it certainly can be the road that is the easiest to travel for a young person with the propensity to take it.

[hops_scout]

I dont carry a sheath knife. I've thought about getting one numerous times, but have not found one I would want that I would really need. The only ones I've thought about getting were the ones with an empty handle to carry survival stuff. But why? It's a waste of money when my 5 dollar Walmart knife does a great job and may look like crap, but gets the job done. BTW- its all rusted and everything for some reason. It's the sharpest knife I own though;)

 

I dont really find knives to be all the cool. Who cares??

[Fuzzy Bear]

Barry,

I understand and respect your position. I accept the fact that agreement is unnecessary. I am sure that you do well using your methods based upon your experiences. What I have learned here is that there is very little agreement among so many knowledgeable and talented Scouters on various issues.

FB

 

[Bob White]

I agree almost totally with Eagledad's last post. What concerns me is not the use of a sheath knife, but the proper use of a sheath knife. What concerned me most about Eagle2's post is the suggestion that the the tool be allowed not because it is the right tool for the job, but simply because it is seen as "cool" in the eyes of a scout.

 

I would hope that we are teach better decision making than that. Coolness is a fine factor for choosing some pieces of property but personal tools like sheath knives. While I do remember what it was like to be a boy I also remember that scouting helped to teach me think beyond what was cool to what was right.

 

 

[RobK]

'What concerned me most about Eagle2's post is the suggestion that the the tool be allowed not because it is the right tool for the job, but simply because it is seen as "cool" in the eyes of a scout.'

 

What's wrong with that, Bob? Who does it hurt? We better be doing things simply because they're cool in the eyes of a scout. What's the point of sleeping in the woods? Really, what's the point of Scouting at all? Why don't we just make them come to some confrence room and take notes? Not many boys would volunteer for that, would they? Scouting worked for B-P in the first place because boys thought it was cool. If the boys don't think the program is cool, there is no program. Boys like to go out in the woods and play frontiersman/pioneer/soldier/whatever. Part of that is big sheath knives! It's a game, Bob. If we're not bringing them in with what they think is cool, silly as it may be to an adult, we're not bringing them in! Those knives are the bait, along with the axes, the matches and fire, the ropes and knots, the tents, etc. Scouting better be about what boys think is cool, or else Scouting won't serve boys.

 

One other point I want to make: it shouldn't be the adult leadership that tells a new boy that it's silly to bring a big sheath knife. It should be the older boys. Boy led, right?

[eagle54]

Skill in the use of knives, axes in something that comes with practice. But the inproper use of axes, knives etc must have consequences.

 

The hunting knive can be great for skinning game but only a few of us get the opportunity to skin a buck.

 

They are all tools in cutting firewood, and building camp gadgets. We need to train the leaders of the troop better so they can teach the other scouts the proper use of the knives.

 

Definitely we can not carry knives thru the terminals at the airport.

 

[Bob White]

What's wrong with that, Bob? Who does it hurt?

 

You can't be serious Rob! Using the wrong tool for the wrong job can hurt a lot of people, especially the young man using it whose safety has been entrusted to you.

 

Just because its a game doesn't mean you should play irresponsibly. Camping outdoors is bait, but you don't let them camp in a dry creek bed just because it's cool. At least not if you know anything about camping.

 

Climbing and rappelling is cool, but using the wrong rope is foolish. Building a fire is cool, but biting it under a rain fly is foolish. Using a knife is cool, using the wrong knife s foolish. Encouraging them to bring the wrong knife is irresponsible.

[red feather]

Ditto to RobK.

 

Camping, hiking, cooking, the outdoors is the bait and hook that scouting utilizes to get the boys into scouting so that they can be taught, lessoned, exposed to what scouting can give them.

 

Are we to bubble wrap the boys so much that they can not learn what may be proper, safe, correct, or the way it oughta be done? The school of hard knocks is a method of learning. If the scouts are not allowed to make mistakes (packing a backpack too heavy, as an example, and then carrying it) then the scout does not truly LEARN from that school.

 

Yes, discretion, experience, and knowlege from those who are still learning from that school is of importance. But, how many of us have not ignored those students and have gone on to understand and appreciate those who tried to tell us what we were doing was incorrect? And then learned from it?

 

Gotta let the scouts learn from both their accomplishments and their failures (oooopppssss) and go from there. Learning these makes the scout more confident in themselves and to me that is what we are all about.

 

yis

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"Ahh, the words of a Master Scouter. A person cannot appear to have wisdom if they don't have the reflection of experience sparkling in the eyes."

 

Experience is the best teacher. If you have a leaking roof, which neighbor do you ask for advice, the roofer or the accountant? If your daughter is behaving oddly, do you look for advice from your batchelor friend or your cousin who has raised eight daughters?

[Bob White]

Red Feather is correct in every arena except safety. When you "allow" a scout to do ignore safety as a learning experience you don't always get a second chance to correct your error. You are required as an adult leader to intercede in matters of safety. You have a responsibility to the parents and to the scouts. There are lots of other situations in scouting when you can let the scout learn through trial and error, but safety is not one of them.

[Eagledad]

Good Morning All

 

>>Those knives are the bait, along with the axes, the matches and fire, the ropes and knots, the tents, etc. Scouting better be about what boys think is cool, or else Scouting won't serve boys.>You can't be serious Rob! Using the wrong tool for the wrong job can hurt a lot of people,

[RobK]

At what point Bob, did I say anything about letting the boys be unsafe? I never suggested that, and you know it. I have no use at all for a .50 BMG rifle, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be fun to own and shoot, or that I can't do so safely! That's the point with the sheath knives. Let the boys who want, take their sheath knives. Let them see that it's not the right tool for the jobs they're most likely to encounter. Let them get it out of their systems -- safely!

 

[Bob White]

Barry, you and I both know that the there are far more important reasons to choose a knife then what is "cool".

 

Tools should be chosen based on need and ability to do the job safely.

 

I took nothing out of context. The recommendation was to allow scouts to carry knives based on their "coolness". I would hope that as adult leaders we are teaching better criteria than that, especially where safety is concerned.

 

I don't know any scout, who thinks wearing a PFD is cool. Is anyone suggesting that he be allowed to decide not to wear one based on the "coolness" factor? I would hope not, but why should cool only count for one tool and not another?

 

I have nothing against sheath knives if they are the right tool for the right job. What I have a big problem with is the suggestion that scout leaders should use "cool" as the deciding factor in determining the appropriateness of this kind of tool.

[Zahnada]

It's amazing how this forum can create an argument when none exists.

 

Bob, let's look at the original post that started this discussion about sheath knives being "cool".

 

"Ah...we have forgotten what it is like to be a boy. Sheath knives are cool. We allow them on non-district, non-council events (council and district usually ask that sheath knives not be used on events they run but allow them according to BSA policy otherwise). They are seldom used since pocket knives usually have more utility around camp but it doesn't matter. They're cool. Doesn't matter if they never get used. They're just cool. If you don't understend that then you don't understand boys. They were cool when I was 12 and in my experience that hasn't changed. Teach the boys how to use knives (and axes and bow saws). Don't let them wear them when playing capture the flag if you are concerned about the knife stabbing a boy through the scabbard (I have never witnessed or even heard of a bona fide account of that, by the way, in my admittedly limited 42 years association with Scouting). Let's not be too PC and wimpy. We have enough of that already."

 

Now Bob, this post has no disregard for safety. It's not saying anything about "if it feels cool, do it." And I would say that the poster is making the case that "coolness" is the definitive criteria for carrying a sheath knife. He doesn't even say anything about using sheath knives when they're obviously the wrong tool for the job. Actually, he recognizes that sheath knives are seldom used because they aren't the right tool. That leaves me to believe that his troop is properly instructing the boys in the use of edged tools in a safe and constructive manner.

 

I think you need to read the original post more carefully, Bob. One of the questions raised in this discussion is, "Why should boys have a sheath knife?" The poster answered with one reason in an honest and practical manner. He never implies that coolness trump safety. He never claims that coolness determine everything in life. But coolness is a reason for many of a boy's actions and we cannot ignore that. As scouters, we need to make that coolness constructive. I see no harm in what the original post says.