How Many ASMs per Troop

[TMSM]

As SM I have limited the number of ASMs to allow the scouts to own and be responsible for most of the program. The scouts do all planning, do all of the testing and signing of requirments in the books, plan and carry out COH. As SM i do leadership training, sit in on PLC, provide a scoutmaster minute each week and do SM conferences. We have 40 scouts and what I think is a good scout run program. 

I currently have 3 ASMs. 1 is the adult QM (he assists the QM and pays for things with a credit card), 1 older scouts ASM (he is Eagle coordinator too) and 1 ASM that can do anything I can do. I have a good committee supporting me and good standing within our district. I also have 12 parents that are MBCs and have all Eagle MBs covered.

I have been taking grief (mainly from new parents) that I need more ASMs. The 4 other troops in our area have 10 -12 ASMs for troops of 30-40. I get it that dads want to be part of scouting but most just want Webelos 3 so I make them wait a year to make sure  they get how Boys Scouts work. Am I off here? Do I need more? What do 10 ASMs do that helps the Scouts maintain responsibility?

 

[Chisos]

I say what you're doing sounds just fine.  Especially to prevent "Webelos 3".  If one's serious about being an ASM, give them a year to be a parent, and tell them they have to take SM training and IOLS before they sign on...I bet that would filter out some.

[MattR]

I can't answer that for you but here's how I'd answer it. How's your program? You are apparently happy with it, but why? What's your definition of a good program? For me it's the scouts are having fun and the scouts are taking on more responsibility as they grow older. How do you measure fun and responsibility? One way to measure fun is how active are the scouts? How many scouts go on weekend events? What are the week long programs and how's the participation. As for scout growth, what are the growth paths? How are the patrols functioning? What percentage of scouts are older, say 15 and above? What do they do? How do they relate to the younger scouts?

You can tell us answers to these questions if you want but it's really just for you to think about. But if you're happy with your program then it works. You might want to dig a bit deeper with the people that say you need more ASMs and find out the why behind that.

[TMSM]

Scouts seem to be happy based on BORs. We have a 90% retention rate of first year scouts and I have 4 scouts older than 15 and they are starting to want have thier own space and have different responsibilities. I have bumped a few adults out of doing things that the scouts could do and may have ruffled feathers but I trust the older scouts to get stuff done. We have around 25 of the 40 scouts camp per month and have 32 out of 40 going to summer camp. Its taken 3 years to get here but the Troop is mostly where I think t should be. Are focus is now on being even more Patrol focused and perhaps do some Patrol campouts.

I get it that some dads want to be a more visable part of the troop but I don't think adding ASMs fixes anything. I have done a great job at becoming less visable and working with my SPL to be a great leader. Sometimes dads see no leader and they jump in and start taking control so one of my biggest roles in Spring is getting in front of them. 

I was told by a scouter from another district that I should have as many ASMs as I can and to give them each a job and that my role as SM is to manage each of these ASMs. His eaxmple - ASM of Tenderfoot requirements, ASM of Wood tools, ASM of Cooking, ASM of Life rank etc.. He got pretty upset with me for saying 2 is enough for some troops. Am I screwing over dads that just want the title? 

 

[The Latin Scot]

That Scouter from another district means well I am sure, but that kind of micromanaging doesn't just seem excessive - it seems obsessive to me. And it's a legitimate threat to Scouting as a program.

Your system - in other words, THE BOY SCOUT PATROL METHOD (ta dum!) -  WORKS because leadership is being handled by the boys, not by the adults. To be blunt, you shouldn't worry two figs over adults who just want things to do - Scouting is not for them, it's for the Scouts themselves. When fathers want to be more involved in the Troop, you get them on the camp outs, you get them to help with fundraising, you get them to work on the committee - but you don't make them ASM's unless you can be SURE they won't get their grubby mitts all over the wonderful program you seem to have going already.  

People usually complain most when they see what they want most. In your case, it's fathers who want attention and outside Scouters who probably want a program like yours, but on their own terms - meaning under their control, and publicly credited to their efforts. Ignore them. Ignore them, ignore them! You are getting a real feel for how Scouting is supposed to be, with Patrols gaining more autonomy while adults fill supportive, supervisorial roles - not management ones. To have an ASM over every aspect of Scouting sounds lunatic to me - an ASM of woodtools?! Of Cooking?!? Is he mad?  That kind of adult intervention is exactly the kind of usurpation which robs boys of the very maturing experiences Scouting is meant to foster, and it should be cut out of every unit as much as humanly possible.

Luckily, you can point to the success of your unit when confronted by those who tell you how things "ought to be." And if they still balk, state kindly but firmly that Scouting requires as little adult intervention as possible to work, and that you would hate to be guilty of tainting their experience by ruining the momentum they have going already - and wouldn't they as well? 

 

[RememberSchiff]

If it ain't broke...I'd say you are delivering the Promise of Scouting.

Well done.

[fred johnson]

IMHO, ya just don't need that may ASMs.  In fact, it often damages the program.  A good rule of thumb in my book is some ratio.  Maybe 1 for every 15 to 20 scouts.  If you have 10 scouts, do you really need an ASM?  30 scouts is good for one ASM.  50 scouts is good for two ASMs.  

[ItsBrian]

My troop has 12 scouts, 2 ASMs (one active at every meeting & does advancement, and then we have one that works all the time so he mainly fills in for camping.). 

If YOU think you have enough, and the program is going smoothly, then why add more to the mix?

If your Troop is as good as it sounds, I see no reason why unless a current ASM has to step back or if you need more help.

You have a ratio of 1:10 about for active leaders: youth. That’s not bad, and I’m sure you’re handling it fine. 

[ItsBrian]

2 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

IMHO, ya just don't need that may ASMs.  In fact, it often damages the program.  A good rule of thumb in my book is some ratio.  Maybe 1 for every 15 to 20 scouts.  If you have 10 scouts, do you really need an ASM?  30 scouts is good for one ASM.  50 scouts is good for two ASMs.  

I disagree. Read my post above for info about my troop. I would say atleast 1 ASM:10 scouts. Our SM and ASM always do different tasks and it makes the SM’s and I’s life easier. 

[TMSM]

Thanks for the info and encouragement. I take no credit for the how well the troop works. All I did was provide a framework, back off some adults (some out of the troop) and went low key as much as possible. Without the scouts stepping up and taking on roles and being accountable we would not have a good program. 

In 2016 we had 20 scouts at Summer camp and only 3 adults - it was a great time. I felt like I did nothing but sit around. In 2017 we had 28 scouts and 12 adults - It was mostly a fuster cluck of adults trying to do everything and nothing at the same time. 

[qwazse]

It really depends on your flexibility. 40 boys = 5 patrols. If there was a weekend where each patrol wanted to overnight in a different location, you would need two adult chaperons for each. 2 x 5 =10 adult leaders. Ten ASMs gives you that level of flexibility all the time. If you have dads who complete training (including IOLS) that's half that equation. The other half is the first word on the patch. If they are actually assisting you instead of running their own little fiefdom, it's great. If not, they need to find their own CO and start their own troop.

Or ... if they really want a job, have them team up with a mom or two recruit some sisters and girlfriends and start a BSA4G troop next year.

[fred johnson]

2 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I disagree. Read my post above for info about my troop. I would say atleast 1 ASM:10 scouts. Our SM and ASM always do different tasks and it makes the SM’s and I’s life easier. 

What you described in your earlier post was good.  I have no issue with it.  But you effectively had one SM and one ASM because your ASMs assumed different roles.  

(see next comment)

[fred johnson]

2 hours ago, TMSM said:

In 2016 we had 20 scouts at Summer camp and only 3 adults - it was a great time. I felt like I did nothing but sit around. In 2017 we had 28 scouts and 12 adults - It was mostly a fuster cluck of adults trying to do everything and nothing at the same time. 

That's what I've seen too.  The experience of the scouts is diminished because of the quantity of the adults.  The adults feel the need to justify themselves being there by showing their value.  Thus, inserting themselves regularly into the program.

Plus, there is no way to get 12 adults to work in the same direction when their sons are involved.  Eventually, everyone starts second guessing what's going on and the efforts of one group subvert the efforts of another.  

[ItsBrian]

7 hours ago, fred johnson said:

What you described in your earlier post was good.  I have no issue with it.  But you effectively had one SM and one ASM because your ASMs assumed different roles.  

(see next comment)

Don’t most ASMs usually have different roles? (Advancement, camping, etc) Or is that only a Troop thing?

[qwazse]

6 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

Don’t most ASMs usually have different roles? (Advancement, camping, etc) Or is that only a Troop thing?

Depends on the troop.

I prefer that ASM have no roles, but rather are available at different times to coach a variety of activities.

The SM and one other dad are aces with guns. I'm all about land navigation (comes from getting lost a lot) and aquatics. Others are good mechanics. As boys get to know us and become leaders they learn who to call on to set up an activity. This may include, at times, helping a QM manage an influx of gear, but not being an uber-QM.