Water / Bottle Rockets ?

[glider90]

Hello, 

For the past several years our pack has done a spring pack meeting where the boys make very simple water powered rockets from soda bottles.  We have used three launching stations, each staffed by a parent that used a bicycle pump to pressurize the bottle to a safe pressure.  The entire area was managed by a certified rangemaster.  In reviewing this past document it seems that this activity may not conform to the "Shooting Sports Manual", as referenced here:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/05/06/water-guns-ok-for-target-shooting-not-for-firing-at-other-scouts/

I take it the activity listed above is what is meant by "Bottle Rocket"? I always considered bottle rockets to be the firework type, but I have to assume that their definition is what we are doing above, as fireworks would pretty obviously not be allowed.

If we wanted to swap for a different rocket activity, where can I find out if Stomp Rockets are banned?

What about shooting off actual model rockets in conjunction with a local rocketry club?  It is rather disappointing as I have been able to stir the interest of the boys by showing them the recent Falcon Heavy launch and impressive recovery system.  I was looking forward to bridging the interest in what the private space sector is doing with a talk to my Webelo den about developing a parachute recovery system for their rockets in our Engineer It Adventure.  I may need to change strategy if rockets of all type are banned.  

Edited April 9, 2018 by glider90
spelling

[ItsBrian]

Good question. A 16 year old at the Cub Scout day camp I worked for last year had launched many rockets with the cub scouts. I wonder if it was allowed.

[Eagledad]

I didn't interpret the guideline to include the water rockets. 

I also would not interpret model rockets under the guidelines either. In fact I believe there is a model rocket merit badge.

AND, are you sitting on an RV8?

Barry

Edited April 9, 2018 by Eagledad

[Jameson76]

4 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I believe there is a model rock merit badge.

 

There is a Space Exploration MB.  Typically the Scout build and launches a rocket as part of the requirements.  Most summer camps launch these at the end of the week, that is always good times, just be limber and ready to move

[Eagle1993]

Agreed with the above.  We have used both model rockets and water rockets for an August activity and join scouts night.  We do not see this as a shooting sport unless you aim them horizontal (intentionally).  

[glider90]

 I think we need clarification.  What is a "Bottle Rocket" then?  The firework?  

I think water rockets would be OK, but my Cubmaster (I am the Den Leader) has interpreted it as a no they are no.  I told her I would try to dig in further to make sure.

Not sitting on the wing of An RV-8, although I have been helping a friend with an RV-7A.  That is the wing of Strega, the 13 time Unlimited Champion at the Reno National Air Races:)

[Eagledad]

Just now, Jameson76 said:

There is a Space Exploration MB.  Typically the Scout build and launches a rocket as part of the requirements.  Most summer camps launch these at the end of the week, that is always good times, just be limber and ready to move

Ah thanks. It's always a fun Saturday for the scouts in our troop.

Barry

[glider90]

EAGLE 1993, just saw your reply as I was typing.  What you say makes sense as far as it being a shooting sport.  I agree with that.  This actually brings the whole story into light.  We (myslef and the CM) started this discussion because neither of our range masters were available to be at our rocket launch meeting.  I asked if we "specifically need a trained rangemaster for the event".  She said she would try to find it in writing and that is how we got here, she looked in the shooting sports manual.  

So, if this is not a shooting sport, and if we apply  common safety sense,  do we need a certified range master, or could a responsible parent act as the safety officer for this event?

[Eagle1993]

@glider90

That is how we handle it.  We have a leader (or multiple) help ensure safe operation.  The parents pump up the rocket and we keep the pressure to ~40psi  or so.  Model rockets we allow the scouts to launch it at the full extension of the Estes launch cable.  Note that our DE has been present at both activities so I never thought it was an issue.

We even had a parent who created some sort of air cannon that launched candy 40 feet in the air.  Not sure what rules that falls under (he operates it himself and the scouts are down a hill ~30 yards away) but it is a blast watching candy shrapnel rain down on our scouts.

[RichardB]

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-055_WaterBottleRockets.pdf

And - model rockets

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-055_Rocket Safety_LOW.pdf or 

 

[RichardB]

14 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

@glider90

 

We even had a parent who created some sort of air cannon that launched candy 40 feet in the air.  Not sure what rules that falls under (he operates it himself and the scouts are down a hill ~30 yards away) but it is a blast watching candy shrapnel rain down on our scouts.

Not a program of the BSA.   I'd consider that an prohibited activity.    

[glider90]

Thank you RichardB!  Printed to take to the Committee meeting tonight.  This will answer the questions and keep our Rocket program on schedule.  Much appreciated!

[TWCub]

We borrow the stomp rockets from our BSA service center.  I hope they are allowed.

[qwazse]

25 minutes ago, glider90 said:

 I think we need clarification.  What is a "Bottle Rocket" then?  The firework? 

Based on where they it appears on the list on Bryan's blog post, I take bottle rocket in that context to mean fireworks for which one would use a bottle as a launch "pad." I think we all can agree that large groups of scouts igniting such combustion propellants is fraught with risk.

Not so cub-scout bottle rockets - as in rockets made of plastic soda bottles -- with the typical pressure relief that a home water system with duct-taped stays would have, and the correspondingly low mass of the returning lofted projectile.

IMHO, stomp rockets are more fun for the boys.

However, the challenge of building and launching model rockets (with the proper solid-fuel engines) is very rewarding. I did it when I was a cub, and made sure my kids gave it a try when they were Webelos age.

As for as I know, these continue to be approved activities when following manufacturer guidlines and common sense as outlined on the oft-ignored page 1 of the Guide to Safe Scouting .

Per my rule #1 (Never ask for a rule, or someone will fabricate one for you, and you'll eventually regret it.) I've never asked about more than what BSA has published under the G2SS pages, and although we may disagree about what should be in or out, this is one instance where they keep your hands from being tied.

[Hawkwin]

Wow...

Quote

Water balloons, meanwhile, have a size limit: “For water balloons, use small, biodegradable balloons, and fill them no larger than a ping pong ball.” (Page 100)

Why even have a water balloon if they have to be that small? Can a balloon that small even pop consistently? Either really small balloons or the rubber would have barely stretched with such little water.

 

I didn't see Tomahawk toss on either list of permitted or banned activities. Where does BSA stand on such? I think we have one annually at least at one of our camporees.