SM Discretion on OA Elections

[ParkMan]

A Scoutmaster is not king.  

If a Scoutmaster is acting unprofessionally - other volunteers have every right to say so.  The OA election team are invited guests.  They should show due respect to the SM.  In turn, if the SM begins to act unprofessionally, they should walk out.  But, in the end, if things escalate quickly, I full expect the OA advisor to stand up to the SM.

As a CC, I place trust in the SM to lead and organize the program in a way consistent with the best culture of the CO. 

 

[David CO]

5 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I full expect the OA advisor to stand up to the SM.

Most likely, the CO doesn't care one iota about the OA or it's elections. It might not even care much about the scout unit. It does care about arguments and fights taking place on it's premises. 

I tend to think first and foremost about the CO. If I gave the scoutmaster the keys and left him in charge of the building/gym/hall, I would expect all visitors to obey him (or leave). No exceptions. 

If other volunteers disagree with my scoutmaster, they have every right to say so (somewhere else), but not in my building. Once they leave the property, they are free to say whatever they want to whomever they want.

 

 

[Oldscout448]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

Things should never get to that point. If it does, it is a clear indication that the OA advisor messed up. He should have packed up his OA team and left the meeting long before that happened.

We have the same problem in sports. Even though coaches and umpires have been trained to call off a game before letting things get too far out of hand, many people are overly reluctant to do it. They place too much importance on finishing the game. A game isn't worth fighting over.

So, when an argument occurs at a scout meeting, who should walk away? It is certainly not the scoutmaster. The scoutmaster is responsible to the CO to supervise the building and lock up afterwards. The scoutmaster can't just walk away. The CO requires him to stay until everyone else has left.

The OA advisor, on the other hand, has no need to remain in the meeting. He has no obligation to supervise or lock up. He is usually not even a member of the CO. He and his team are free to leave any time they want to.

The only reason an OA team and an OA advisor would stay at the meeting, in the situation you describe, if foolish pride. They just don't want to walk away. They want to stay and win the argument. They want to argue and fight rather than walk away.

It is more than condescending, it is prideful and arrogant. 

 

 

 

Wow, prideful, arrogant, and condescending all at the same time!  I guess I failed to include the fact that we went from " everything is normal" to  " OMG, I think that guy might actually hit the kid" in about 15 seconds.  

Hardly time enough to calmly pack up and take out leave.

Btw, I've walked away from a quite a number of fights ,that I was certain I would win,some physical, some verbal.  I don't like fighting, never have. 

The only thing a fight solves is who is the better fighter. The  primary conflict remains unresolved. 

 

[ParkMan]

I think most COs are primarily interested that the Scout program on their premises is being run in the best interest of the boys and the CO. 

That the Scoutmaster can't manage a simple election without a fight would be my concern. 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

Since I believe below is addressed to me, I will give my responses. But my first question is this: Are you familiar with OA election procedures? In order to be on the ballot, a Scout must be First Class or higher, have 20 days and nites of camping, including one long term camp in the past 2 years, and must have the SM's approval. A SM can withhold approval for any reason he wants. BUT once the SM approves the names on a ballot, they are eligible to be elected. Then it is in the hands of the youth in a troop. And if the unacceptable Scout is elected, there is nothing the SM can do because he had already approved the name for election. 

4 hours ago, David CO said:

Things should never get to that point. If it does, it is a clear indication that the OA advisor messed up. He should have packed up his OA team and left the meeting long before that happened.

How is it the OA Adviser and team's fault if the SM, upon being told the election results, starts making a scene? How is it the adviser's fault if the SM refuses to go to an area out of hearing of the youth of his troop to calmly discuss the matter? How is it the fault of the advisor if the SM continues to be confrontational after the the decision of the OA team to leave. How is it the Advisor's fault that the SM is screaming and cursing at him and the election team as they are in the parking lot leaving?

I know not every situation is the same, but making a blanket "clear indication that the OA advisor messed up...." is not right. Sometimes the SM is at fault in these matters.

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We have the same problem in sports. Even though coaches and umpires have been trained to call off a game before letting things get too far out of hand, many people are overly reluctant to do it. They place too much importance on finishing the game. A game isn't worth fighting over.

Agree an OA election is not worth fighting over. That's why when I realized the SM would not listen to reason and continued to yell and curse, I ended the discussion and told the team to pack it up. But how did I as an advisor "mess up" when SM follows us into the parking lot yelling and cursing at us as we leave?

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So, when an argument occurs at a scout meeting, who should walk away? It is certainly not the scoutmaster. The scoutmaster is responsible to the CO to supervise the building and lock up afterwards. The scoutmaster can't just walk away. The CO requires him to stay until everyone else has left.

The OA advisor, on the other hand, has no need to remain in the meeting. He has no obligation to supervise or lock up. He is usually not even a member of the CO. He and his team are free to leave any time they want to.

Correct, OA had no need to stay. The election was completed, and as a courtesy the SM was informed. So again, How did I mess up when the SM started yelling and cursing at me and the youth, following us to the parking lot as we left.

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The only reason an OA team and an OA advisor would stay at the meeting, in the situation you describe, if foolish pride. They just don't want to walk away. They want to stay and win the argument. They want to argue and fight rather than walk away.

It is more than condescending, it is prideful and arrogant. 

Agree. It would have been condescending, arrogant, and prideful if I tried to argue with the SM. But would you call it condescending, prideful, and arroganrt when the SM follows us out and yells, "you don't know [anything] about the OA," when I've been active with the OA for several years and was the Chapter Adviser?

[Chisos]

Wow.  If I were the Chapter Adviser in either of the situations described by @Eagle94-A1 or @Oldscout448 there'd be a phone call in to discuss the issue with the COR and/or IH.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Since I believe below is addressed to me, I will give my responses. 

I am a little confused by this. Why would you believe I was addressing my comments to you? I gave an up-arrow and a positive reply to your post. 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Chisos said:

Wow.  If I were the Chapter Adviser in either of the situations described by @Eagle94-A1 or @Oldscout448 there'd be a phone call in to discuss the issue with the COR and/or IH.

Yes. When I was an IH, I would have wanted to receive that phone call. I'm sure that I would have already heard something from several of the scouts/parents. If the janitor was there, he would have called me too. 

Depending on the OA advisor's actions at the incident, I may have also had a chat with his IH.

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by David CO

[Tampa Turtle]

18 hours ago, David CO said:

Things should never get to that point. If it does, it is a clear indication that the OA advisor messed up. He should have packed up his OA team and left the meeting long before that happened.

We have the same problem in sports. Even though coaches and umpires have been trained to call off a game before letting things get too far out of hand, many people are overly reluctant to do it. They place too much importance on finishing the game. A game isn't worth fighting over.

So, when an argument occurs at a scout meeting, who should walk away? It is certainly not the scoutmaster. The scoutmaster is responsible to the CO to supervise the building and lock up afterwards. The scoutmaster can't just walk away. The CO requires him to stay until everyone else has left.

The OA advisor, on the other hand, has no need to remain in the meeting. He has no obligation to supervise or lock up. He is usually not even a member of the CO. He and his team are free to leave any time they want to.

The only reason an OA team and an OA advisor would stay at the meeting, in the situation you describe, if foolish pride. They just don't want to walk away. They want to stay and win the argument. They want to argue and fight rather than walk away.

It is more than condescending, it is prideful and arrogant. 

 

 

 

I would walk away and report the SM to Council.

[David CO]

Sure. Call the IH. Call the council. Call the police. Call anyone and everyone you feel you should call... just so long as you walk away from the fight. Do not fight at scout meetings.

[Eagle94-A1]

14 hours ago, David CO said:

I am a little confused by this. Why would you believe I was addressing my comments to you? I gave an up-arrow and a positive reply to your post. 

I'm sorry, I am taking things to personally of late..I admit the past 2 weeks have been stressful at work. I was hoping to have a relaxing weekend camping to bleed off the stress.That didn't happen and several things happened that made the stress worse.

Again I apologize.

[David CO]

29 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I'm sorry, I am taking things to personally of late..I admit the past 2 weeks have been stressful at work. I was hoping to have a relaxing weekend camping to bleed off the stress.That didn't happen and several things happened that made the stress worse.

Again I apologize.

No need to apologize. You made some very good comments in both of your posts. I agreed with almost everything you said.

I intended my comments to be about arguing and fighting at scout meetings/ OA elections (in general), and not specifically focused on any of the 3 examples discussed in this thread. My mistake. I didn't make this clear enough.

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by David CO

[Tampa Turtle]

There have been times (for various reasons) I have lost my cool in front of the Scouts or Students. Regardless of the justification I was withdrawing trust and respect at breakneck speed with the youth-hard to earn easy to lose. My point was one could argue all night FTF or on the Forum about the SM vs OA thing....by reporting I'd let Council sort it out...it would be up to what ever policy they would want to have on it. And I could see an argument from the SM side...we have pushed back at times on promoted by other presentations like FOS or WB beading taking over entire meetings. Fair is fair.

Sorry work is stressing you out. I have had a similar experience lately.