JustAScoutMom Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 He quickly accepted the swim team idea (in the past, he has HATED the idea), but he is determined to impress his peeps by passing the test in June. His legs are strong due to daily inline skating. I think the swim coach will great for him...he will gain endurance AND learn the proper stroke techniques. I'm excited for him. I think each new skill will make him feel accomplished. More importantly, he will absolutely know that when he passes, he really earned it. Its his alone and he can take a lot of pride in it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSF Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 11 hours ago, ItsBrian said: I can pass it now. I was a beginner during my first summer camp, around 4 years ago? I just haven’t been to camp for the past year due to me working at a day camp. I am glad to hear that. Good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 21 hours ago, JustAScoutMom said: He quickly accepted the swim team idea (in the past, he has HATED the idea), but he is determined to impress his peeps by passing the test in June. His legs are strong due to daily inline skating. I think the swim coach will great for him...he will gain endurance AND learn the proper stroke techniques. I'm excited for him. I think each new skill will make him feel accomplished. More importantly, he will absolutely know that when he passes, he really earned it. Its his alone and he can take a lot of pride in it. My older son also joined a swim team to pass swim tests. Though not fast or able to flip turn, he medalled in competitions since he had no lane violations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 On 3/10/2018 at 1:59 AM, SSF said: "Strong manner" is hardly subjective. It's pretty straightforward. Ahem... On 3/9/2018 at 2:14 PM, qwazse said: As to strong manner, it is subjective. Unless you can quantitatively measure what makes one swimmer strong and another not where both of them swam the entire distance with the correct strokes, then as the OP and others have stated, the qualifier is subjective. It is determined by the opinion and the interpretation of the instructor, not a specific measurement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WisconsinMomma Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) Building up endurance on the swim team sounds like a great move. Maybe he can try to gain some weight before camp too? My two older boys (ages 13 and 11) have worked on their swim merit badges in local pools, not the lake at camp. Both worked in individual lessons with a swim coach who is also a BSA merit badge counselor, then they took a MB class offered at another local pool. They spent probably 3 months working on swimming to build stroke technique, efficiency and endurance. My oldest is very thin and we got him a wetsuit and prescription goggles (very inexpensive on Amazon) to help him, he was freezing even in an indoor pool that has colder temps for competitive swimming. Oldest passed the MB, middle son is incomplete and needs to finish up work on diving. While their swimming has improved greatly, their coach said they should do Emergency Preparedness in lieu of Lifesaving (or probably wait until they are bigger and stronger for Lifesaving -- 400 yards is no joke). At camp last year, my crossed over Arrow of Light class all took swimming merit badge except for my kid, who didn't want to do it at camp. From what I heard, it was a very long week with a lot of work on swimming but they all got the badge. The summer camp was overall lenient with badge giving, so I don't know exactly how well they did or how much they covered. Hope your son has a great time at camp and success with his efforts. Edited March 12, 2018 by WisconsinMomma 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 7 hours ago, Hawkwin said: Unless you can quantitatively measure what makes one swimmer strong and another not where both of them swam the entire distance with the correct strokes, then as the OP and others have stated, the qualifier is subjective. It is determined by the opinion and the interpretation of the instructor, not a specific measurement. @hawkwin, I'm not sure what problem you're having with this. Our SPL asked our PL's to not sign off on any trail to first class requirements until they've seen a scout perform the skill a week after it was taught. He effectively expected scouts to be able to tie a knot in a strong manner. We're supporting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSF Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 8 hours ago, Hawkwin said: Ahem... Unless you can quantitatively measure what makes one swimmer strong and another not where both of them swam the entire distance with the correct strokes, then as the OP and others have stated, the qualifier is subjective. It is determined by the opinion and the interpretation of the instructor, not a specific measurement. You're wrong. Please spare me your semantics. The intention of "strong manner" is very clear, but you can go ahead and nitpick the wording if you want to. You wont be helping that boy to be a better swimmer, you'll just be enabling him to get by with poor swimming ability. If a kid is doggy paddling his way through any portion of either the BSA swim test or the swimming MB 150 yard swim, then that is not swimming in a strong manner. If he can't make his turns continuously and must stand up and/or take a pause or break after each 25 yard length, then that is also not swimming in a strong manner. I f he is constantly shifting from one stroke to another and may be flipping onto his back because he's too weak and/or out of shape to complete the swim using the proper prescribed stroke required, then that is not swimming in a strong manner. If at any point during the swim, his body is more vertical than horizontal - in which case he's then no longer swimming but rather treading - then that is also not swimming in a strong manner. No semantics and no enabling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) @SSF, I wish your post was on a sign at every Camp Splashalot waterfront. I remember when Scouting had a strong Every Scout a Swimmer program. Edited March 12, 2018 by RememberSchiff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 9 hours ago, SSF said: If a kid is doggy paddling his way through any portion of either the BSA swim test or the swimming MB 150 yard swim, then that is not swimming in a strong manner. If he can't make his turns continuously and must stand up and/or take a pause or break after each 25 yard length, then that is also not swimming in a strong manner And here folks we have a specific definition of what is strong to you - and if THAT was listed in the requirement, it would be measurable. Since it isn't the verbiage used, "strong" remains subjective. I am in favor of using your verbiage, all of it, for the MB. But since it isn't the verbiage, another MBC might determine "strong" differently. That is what makes it subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) Every one of my sons had trouble with the swimming MB, but ya know it was really a parent issue in the end. The first son struggled, but got by after a year or so. I kept wondering ... how will this kid get past this obstacle? The next son somehow was signed off by other scouts and passed his swimming requirements. Not really sure how it happened. I heard about it a month later at COH. ... I was not sure whether I should step in and cause him embarrassment as he was just awarded advancement. My last two sons spent over a year learning to swim with 2 or 3 trips each week to the pool. I grew closer to my sons. They became confident in the water and good swimmers. Plus it got us all off the coach and doing something beyond video games in the evening. IMHO, this is the whole reason we got into scouts. I really wish I could stay focused on all the parts of scouting as we did with swimming. Too often, we get focused on the badge instead of the learning. The swimming MB because a great experience for my last two sons. Edited March 12, 2018 by fred johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Hawkwin said: And here folks we have a specific definition of what is strong to you - and if THAT was listed in the requirement, it would be measurable. Since it isn't the verbiage used, "strong" remains subjective. I am in favor of using your verbiage, all of it, for the MB. But since it isn't the verbiage, another MBC might determine "strong" differently. That is what makes it subjective. I'm sorry for the "you know it when you see it" attitude. The problem with too much detail in a BSHB requirement: it intimidates boys. That's not what we want. We want them to work with a mentor (for swimming it is usually an adult) who can help them reflect on a concept. Here's part of the swim test description from National Camp School: Quote 2. ". .. swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; ..." The swimmer must be able to cover distance with a strong, confident stroke. The 75 yards must not be the outer limit of the swimmer's ability; completion of the distance should give evidence of sufficient stamina to avoid undue risks. Dog - paddling and strokes repeatedly interrupted and restarted are not sufficient; underwater swimming is not permitted. The itemized strokes are inclusive. Any strong side. or breaststroke, or any strong overarm stroke (including the back crawl) are acceptable. - 2017 Aquatic Staff Guide https://www.ncsbsa.org/resources/general_files/Home/Aquatics Director/2017 AQUATIC STAFF GUIDE.pdf I honestly have never met any life guard or scout who has thought that this was problematic. The requirement takes a back seat to forestalling death. If we have the slightest inkling that next time a scout jumps in the water he wouldn't make the distance, we'd ask him to come back for some coaching and retake the test. Most days, if you pull a scout out of the water after he barely covered some distance, you can flat-out ask him "Was that in a strong manner?" And, having never read verbiage like that, he'll give you an honest appraisal. Maybe it's my upbringing. I knew I had mastered the breast stroke only after the pool director (a veteran from the Women's Air Corps) didn't cuss at me. That was better than any possible sign-off or patch. God rest her. If she was still living when my kids were learning to swim, I would have arranged the one hour commute for them to learn from her. Now I'm not encouraging anyone to take up her style of student-teacher interaction. (Most of you couldn't survive the chain smoking required for it.) But accept the fact that someone who's had to rescue a few victims (and you usually don't have to guard for long before you do) has a pretty clear vision of what they need to see before they clear your scout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 1 minute ago, qwazse said: I knew I had mastered the breast stroke only after the pool director (a veteran from the Women's Air Corps) didn't cuss at me. That was better than any possible sign-off or patch. God rest her. If she was still living when my kids were learning to swim, I would have arranged the one hour commute for them to learn from her. LOL. A bit of a tangent but your comment made me chuckle and instantly think of a scenario last week where one of my son and daughter's volunteer running coaches went on a short tirade about not asking her when practice was over and to not tell her that you are tired and you are ready to go home. Us parents looked at each other and giggled. She then went on to correct some rude/inappropriate behavior when a kid was talking during her tirade (same kid that said he was tired) and she pulled him up and had him stand next to her when she continued her speech. Basically the same thing as scouts - no one else talking while an adult is talking. I thought to myself and later said to my kids that, "I like her, I hope she is your running coach when you get to middle school." My kids, not realizing why I liked her, immediately thought that I had a crush on their running coach. Turns out that my "crush" will be their weekly volunteer coach as well as the official coach for my son next year. He may not be as excited about that prospect as I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David CO Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 3 hours ago, Hawkwin said: That is what makes it subjective. What is wrong with subjective evaluations? As a teacher, I do subjective evaluations all the time. Any hands-on coursework will require at least some subjective evaluation. The only way we could remove them from grading would be to make the class all bookwork, and I definitely wouldn't want that, either at school or in scouting. My favorite Physical Education class requirement was about swinging the bat with a level swing. Now, anyone who has actually played baseball or softball could tell you that nobody ever actually uses a level swing. I know what is meant by a level swing, and I can grade accordingly, but there is really no such thing as a level swing. The same is true with swimming. It is not important that in a strong manner be precise, just so long as the instructor understands what it means and how it should be evaluated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuctTape Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 The other problem with purely objective metrics is it leads to check boxes, and the "letter of the law" mentality vs an honest evaluation. Evaluating the application of skills and knowledge requires a non-objective approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 Subjective is an opinion. Objective is impartial. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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