Family Scouting Update

[David CO]

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

I cannot understand why any scout or scouter would say they will not participate in a scouting activity with other scouts because those scouts are girls, gays, geeks, SPED, blacks, Muslims, LDS, gingers, vegans, jocks, ...

I am old and remember when black Boy Scouts could not attend our summer camp yet we attended the same high schools. My friends attended a separate black scout camp.

We have disagreements, but we are all scouts.

You are an intelligent man. You understand that people of certain religions object to, and even condemn, the beliefs and behaviors of certain other people. Yes, we have disagreements. Very serious disagreements.

You trivialize these disagreement when you lump them together with benign characteristics such as hair color and food preferences. You insult us when you compare our disagreements with racism.

If, for this and no other reason, we were to distance the scouts in our units from those in yours, just to avoid the insult and indignity of being called out as bigots, that would be reason enough for us to not participate in a district or council scouting activity.

 

[RememberSchiff]

27 minutes ago, David CO said:

You are an intelligent man. You understand that people of certain religions object to, and even condemn, the beliefs and behaviors of certain other people. Yes, we have disagreements. Very serious disagreements.

You trivialize these disagreement when you lump them together with benign characteristics such as hair color and food preferences. You insult us when you compare our disagreements with racism.

If, for this and no other reason, we were to distance the scouts in our units from those in yours, just to avoid the insult and indignity of being called out as bigots, that would be reason enough for us to not participate in a district or council scouting activity.

 

My point was that scouts/scouters should overcome these disagreements - trite or serious depending on whose perception - and participate in scout activities together. A Scout is a Friend to All and a Brother to Every Other Scout ?

Sorry if I was unclear.

Maybe this should be a JTE or Camping MB requirement: each year every troop must camp with another troop.  One on one. I wonder if the adults could get through Friday night?

My $0.02

 

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[Eagle1993]

The BSA has made a decision that girls are going to be full members in Cub Scouts this year and BSA4G along with OA next year (Venturing/Explorers members eligible).  They also are allowing units to decide to be unisex, which is great.  If as a leader you cannot even stand to see other units that are accepting all scouts that are eligible, even as your own unit is not, then I do agree it is time to consider your further participating in BSA. 

[Eagle1993]

5 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

A Scout is a Friend to All and a Brother to Every Other Scout ?

 

 

To me this is what is critical going forward.  If you are against girls joining, I understand.  But if you cannot treat girls that are in BSA with the same respect and honor you treat other scouts then it is time to consider your future in scouting.  

 

[David CO]

19 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

To me this is what is critical going forward.  If you are against girls joining, I understand.  But if you cannot treat girls that are in BSA with the same respect and honor you treat other scouts then it is time to consider your future in scouting.  

 

Not really. There is usually no need to go to such extreme measures. It is easy enough to simply not interact with units you don't like.

 

[David CO]

40 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

My point was that scouts/scouters should overcome these disagreements - trite or serious depending on whose perception - and participate in scout activities together. A Scout is a Friend to All and a Brother to Every Other Scout?

A brother? How can a girl be a brother?

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by David CO

[RememberSchiff]

5 minutes ago, David CO said:

A brother? How can a girl be a brother?

 

Maybe we should go back to arguing about art? 

[ParkMan]

I'm reminded that these are all just youth we're talking about here.  For the most part they all just want to have fun and be accepted by the people they meet.  The kids may have different backgrounds, but those backgrounds are mostly outside of their control - they come from parents, families, and communities.  

In other words, thr scouts may all come from different backgrounds - but when they get to camp they are just kids who want to have a good time.  

I fully respect and appreciate that we all want to raise our kids by the values we think important.  The challenge to us as Scouters and parents is to teach our kids how to enjoy each other's company, treat all the kids with human kindness, and understand that it is okay that we all don't have the same values.  Further, it's is completely okay for me to believe that my core values are correct, but still relate to all other Scouts as friends.

[Eagle1993]

Ever since @CalicoPenn went nuclear a few pages ago this thread seems unrecoverable.  

Agree to disagree 😀

[David CO]

5 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Maybe we should go back to arguing about art? 

Ooh. I do like to talk about art. But I suppose that would be straying too far off topic. 

[qwazse]

The thing is, I feel like I've always been taught (and have taught my kids) to respect Girl Scouts, Campfire Girls, Swedes visitng Jambo, etc ... all my life. (My SM had requisition tents from the QM for when GS Troop who needed to borrow tents ... and smiled to myself when they came back with a perfume scent.) Then these decades of polarization come and suddenly those programs become second class,  NESA  our rowdy fans cheered excessively, and our program gets pegged great -- but our leaders arrogant and bull-headed.

So, we try to provide what others seem to have lost. Some of us are uncomfortable with the sacrifice, and the solution? Marginalize anybody who feels we've moved beyond them? That's a great way to drain our brain trust, our manpower, and ultimately, our camps. Think units sparsely dispersed, districts as bigger than councils used to be, councils the size of areas.

But, who cares about money?  Someone may step in where a traditional-minded leader steps out. But at what costs? Scouts without a trained leader who they trust? Disenchanted boys abandon Oath and Law (or never get a chance to learn them)? One more angry kid stewing at home until old enough to acquire munitions? One hiker injured alone on a trail without scouts strolling by to treat him/her. There are enough

I suggest those of us who find redemption in BSA4G should refrain from disparaging remarks regarding unisex-minded scouters, and replace them with this simple thought: we need them. Our boys need them. Even our girls need them. Unisex-mined scouters are doing a great job with our youth. If WOSM includes many organizations who deliver the promise of scouting according to the customs of their countrymen and deems them worthy of the world crest, we certainly can respect our own citizens who desire to do the same.

[an_old_DC]

4 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

The BSA has made a decision that girls are going to be full members in Cub Scouts this year and BSA4G along with OA next year (Venturing/Explorers members eligible).  They also are allowing units to decide to be unisex, which is great.  

 

By units do you mean packs, or has there been other info from National?

regarding girls joining OA and Venturing/Exploring unit’s being eligible, was this formally communicated from National? And if so, please provide a link.

[Tampa Turtle]

I respect all scouts I just want the option for all boy Troops for similar reasons many females want GSUSA to stay female only, I just do not think it will be a real option. I do not think national can pull off what they say.  Boys are being neglected in our society. However it seems that is an opinion that is not allowed to be uttered on this board. 

[RememberSchiff]

12 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I respect all scouts I just want the option for all boy Troops for similar reasons many females want GSUSA to stay female only, I just do not think it will be a real option. I do not think national can pull off what they say.  Boys are being neglected in our society. However it seems that is an opinion that is not allowed to be uttered on this board. 

Well you just uttered it...and in a courteous way.

[Eagle94-A1]

On 3/10/2018 at 12:59 PM, Eagle1993 said:

The BSA has made a decision that girls are going to be full members in Cub Scouts this year and BSA4G along with OA next year (Venturing/Explorers members eligible).  They also are allowing units to decide to be unisex, which is great.  

21 hours ago, qwazse said:

I suggest those of us who find redemption in BSA4G should refrain from disparaging remarks regarding unisex-minded scouters, and replace them with this simple thought: we need them. Our boys need them. Even our girls need them. Unisex-mined scouters are doing a great job with our youth. 

I'm linking these two quotes because they go together, just bear with me and read all of my comment before going ballistic.

We already know that many parents today view convenience as being more important than development. Let's face it we see it with parents having their kids"earn" Cub Scout awards due to their parents signatures, parents pushing kids to advance, etc. BSA has hopped aboard that as their stated reason for "Family Scouting:" making it more convenient for families to have a one stop Scouting experience. As a result I see fewer and fewer all male Cub Scout packs in the future. And the bulk of our Boy Scouts come from Cub Scouts. If fewer and fewer all male packs exist, it stands to reason that fewer and fewer all male troops will exist, despite what national has said. We've already heard from volunteers in the field that they will ignore national's directives, even Early Adapter packs are having to "joint"  all girl and all male dens meeting. And national just hedged on the All male and All Female troops with the "Linked Troops"  that share leadership, meeting locations, activities, etc. If we use the UK as a model, all male units will slowly go away, leaving no option. When I was in the UK shortly after they went coed, there were still some all make units. But talking to some of the traditional Scouters, they said more folks are going to the coed units than theirs because of their siblings. They predicted at some point there would be no more all male units. While the Scout Association hastened all male units demise by mandating coed, I wonder what the numbers were from 1995 when I was there, until the coed mandate.

So the only way I see all male troops continuing is by themselves without a feeder pack. In order to  grow, they will need an active program, active recruiting strategy, and outstanding Scouters who know their stuff, usually with years of experience behind them. While extremely more difficult  to do, troops without feeder packs can grow. My troop growing up didn't have a feeder pack for years. We had our ups and downs in membership until we got a feeder pack. But even with an active program and recruiting efforts, you may not be successful. One of the absolute best troops ever had no feeder pack, just an outstanding SM and dedicated adults helping. That troop lasted about 18 years before finally folding. When folks came to visit them, they also saw the next door troop, which was larger and had a reputation fro producing Eagles. Why would someone join the one patrol troop if they could join a multipatrol troop with a rep for producing Eagles?

And let's be honest, how many troops have excellent Scouters? As someone stated at my district banquet last nite, dedicated Scouters tend to view the Scouts as 'their second sons." A lot of time, energy, and treasure is spent taking care of "my Scouts."

So how do you think many of those old time Scouters feel when they believe that the National office is not listening to them? Let's face it, when National calculated the results of whether to accept homosexuals into the program, the footnotes states that Western Region's LDS membership was not included in the results. And even without those voices being included, you still had a slight majority against the membership policy change. Wouldn't you feel ignored if you were part of the majority, and national went against your wishes anyway? Regarding the current membership change, there is enough evidence to support those who believe that the decision to allow girls was made before the town hall meetings. Professionals in late 2016/early 2017 being told by the CSE  of big membership changes coming is one example that people are showing to prove the decision was already made to go coed before the town hall meetings and poll. BSA publications becoming gender-neutral in July 2017 is another example of  reasons people believe the decision was made before the town hall. The time frame of when national wanted the town halls to be done: a 3 week period that  included time when many key volunteers are at jamboree is another example why many long time volunteers believe the decision to go coed was made prior to the town halls.. My Scout exec  had a week to set up 2 town halls. Finally national is not reporting the data FROM THE MEMBERSHIP SURVEYS (emphasis, all data national is using to support going coed is from NONMEMBER surveys).For those against allowing girls in the program, this is one of the biggest reasons why they believe national does not listen: they won't report the members' survey data.

Folks against allowing girls already have a lot of hard feelings. And some of the negative, un-Scoutlike attitudes they are encountering are not helping matters. In fact it is furthering their decisions to leave. And as Qwasze stated "...we need them...." We are going to get a lot more volunteers who have little to no Scouting experience and will not only need experienced trainers, but also mentors to advise and coach them. Let's face it, training doesn't provide everything one needs to know to be a Scouter. They need someone to mentor them and go to for advice.

Trust me, losing those experienced, long time Scouters is devastating, especially if you have no one to fill their places. Having them gone does indeed leave a major gap that affects our Scouts. We lost many dedicated folks with the previous membership policy change. We lost commissioners, trainers, program folks, etc. that provided resources for the units in my area. That doesn't include the unit level Scouters we lost resulting in units  closing down.