Family Scouting Update

[Tampa Turtle]

Mrs Google asked Mr Wickipedia and WOSM is for Boys only and co-ed and something called WAAG's (World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts) is for Girls only. GSUSA and Girl guides, UK appears to be part of WAAG's. 

Much smaller group then WOSM. Does demonstrate that other groups must have fear of opposite-sex cooties.

[gblotter]

17 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Step away if it turns out as bad as some seem to think it will be but don't step away over the fear of what it could be.

Fair enough. Can we agree to have this conversation again in February 2019?

[Eagle94-A1]

Regarding the World Crest, some of you may not remember that prior to August 1, 1989,  you had to EARN (emphasis) the World Crest in order to wear it.I earned mine in 1987.  I remember that exact date that allowed everyone to wear it because I was on a bus in Canada in the middle of an international trip that would have qualified everyone for the award when the adults apologized to use about the new rule. Trip was advertised as a way to earn that award. To make up for the rule change, we received the Canadian version of the badge, which is on a velvet background.

So no, I will not be removing something I earned because I disagree with allowing girls in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts.

Now, will I remain active after February 1, 2019? I do not know. I am already frustrated with national over all of this. I believe they are ignoring what the majority of members and volunteers want since they are not publishing those statistics, but are publishing the nonmember ones. Plus they do have a history of ignoring what the members and volunteers want. Further I believe that either Surbaugh et al are either inept in their implementation plan, or they deliberately lied about the implementation plan.It is not realistic, and many will ignore it just as some are ignoring the current BSA policies. Either way, National does not instill a lot of confidence in me about the future of the Boy Scouts of America.

Then there are all the local issues going on. The entire "Family Scouting" concept has no consistent meaning, and my troop is taking a very broad approach to "Family Scouting." I do not agree with it because it is interfering with what the program is suppose to be:allowing Scouts to grow up and be independent. Already getting complaints fro my sons and others about the parents interfering.

But most importantly, my decision will be based upon what my sons want to do. I do see Oldest earning Eagle and getting out. Scouting is no longer fun for him, but he has a goal and wants to complete it. I have no clue what Middle Son will do. He is getting bored with all the family camping  the troop is doing. Only 2 activities he is looking forward to: the AT trip in June, and Summer Camp in July. None of the other trips appeal to him because they are at the same old places, or are family camp outs.

As for my youngest, he is completely against girls in the program. He cites the homeschool groups merging of the Boys and Girls Clubs. When they were two separate groups, the Boys Club was extremely active and doing stereotypical boy things: Nerf wars, outside physical games, etc. The boys were meeting weekly and having fun. The Girls Club which had the same number of folks, were not as active and were doing completely different activities. Some of the adults thought it would work out better if they merged the two. When the activities started changing from what the boys wanted, they slowly lost interest in the coed club. Coed club died, and neither the Boys Club nor Girls Club was restarted. So when, not if but WHEN, my troop goes coed, I do not see him sticking around.

[Hawkwin]

13 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Fair enough. Can we agree to have this conversation again in February 2019?

I hope for both our sakes (and BSA too) that neither of us have to wait that long.

I think we can ALL agree that BSA could have handled this in a manner where this level of ambiguity was not present.

[Eagle1993]

7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When the activities started changing from what the boys wanted, they slowly lost interest in the coed club.

This is the one major concern I have and the only issue I have heard consistently raised by youth.  If the activities remain the same and there are simply some groups that include girls I don’t see a major negative impact to boys.  If the activities do change, I expect my son and I would also leave (I have no desire to lead a generic youth organization). 

I am hopeful and expect the activities will remain but have to admit there is a risk.  I believe this will somewhat have to do with how many (and which) girls join. 

[Hawkwin]

Just now, Eagle1993 said:

 If the activities do change, I expect my son and I would also leave (I have no desire to lead a generic youth organization). 

Agreed. And, if there was indeed such a clamor for join BSA, then it should not need to change to accommodate a different gender. We should assume that they wanted to join because what we already have to offer, not we would somehow morph into GSA with more swag and camping.

[CalicoPenn]

56 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

 Why make him drink the flavor-aid?

Packsaddle would be proud!

[walk in the woods]

35 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

No vilification, just confusion how someone can make an informed decision when we don't know what BSA4G will look like. As I stated, perhaps now for the third time, if troops are forced to have girls, then those leaders have my sympathy and support in their decision.

Step away if it turns out as bad as some seem to think it will be but don't step away over the fear of what it could be.

You ascribe the emotion "fear" to @gblotter when he quite clearly said "sad" and explained his position.  As with the previous membership changes, the onus is on the supporters now to make it work, not on those who decide to move on to defend their decision.   When I was a boy I learned A Scout is Loyal: He is loyal to those to whom loyalty is due.  It's a two-way relationship.  Our brothers and sisters who might feel betrayed have every right to move on without having their motives questioned.

[CalicoPenn]

2 hours ago, gblotter said:

I wouldn't want our boys sharing merit badge classes, evening campfires, flag ceremonies, or dining hall times with girl troops. I seek to continue the same summer camp experience our boys have enjoyed before these announcements.

This is pretty much the exact same argument folks had when the BSA announced that it would allow gay boys in Scouts but allow Troops to make their own decision on whether to include gay boys or not.  The opponents of the inclusion of gay boys weren't content enough to accept that they would have a local (re Troop/CO level) choice of whether or not to include gay boys.  They wanted to make sure their neighboring Troops didn't have that choice either because they didn't want their gay-boy free Troop to have to interact with Troops that had gay boys at summer camp, camporees, flag ceremonies, etc. 

I'm not commenting on these types of threads as much anymore because frankly, I'm tired of the whining and groaning and complaining and the threats to leave.  If you're one of these conditional scouters, which I define as "I'm happy to volunteer as long as nothing ever changes and the BSA does things the way I want them to do them", then do us a favor - stop talking about quitting - just quit.  Do it now - don't wait until 2019.  The Scouts - both the youth members in your units, and the organization as a whole, doesn't need your negativity.  As far as I'm concerned, your Negative Nellyism is going to do far more damage to the Boy Scouts of America and to your Scouts then the inclusion of girls ever will. 

Could the BSA have done better announcing it?  Sure.  At the same time, us people on the ground could have handled it a lot better too - letting the BSA roll it out without all of our speculation.  And no, I don't buy the excuse that in a vacuum people will come up with their own plans.  We're adults - adults can show patience and forbearance, (and model it for our Scouts) and wait until official news comes out to start making our plans - we don't have to act like 8th graders worried about what some bully might do to us after school.  At the most, the only thing we should have done is had a conversation with our CO to ask how they wanted us to handle the co-ed program once it was announced.

If your sons are driving your decision, that's fine - that pretty much drives most people's decision making anyway.

But if your decision making is being made because you personally are upset that the BSA didn't send out a survey to each and every member of the organization to ask for their opinion first, then walk through the door, don't look back - and get on with your life without Scouting and let the rest of us who will work to make things work get on with the business of giving our Scouts the best program that we can.

[gblotter]

9 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

then do us a favor - stop talking about quitting - just quit.  Do it now - don't wait until 2019.

Maybe you are right.

[Eagle1993]

@CalicoPenn

There are great scouters on both side of this issue.  @gblotter should not be chased off.  I don't see this change in the same light as I see discriminating against race, creed or sexual orientation.  Girls have another option and the BSA has been serving many girls in various capacities.  This is truly optional for the BSA and I'm not surprised that some scouters see this as a fundamental change where they can no longer continue.   The fact that @gblotter recognizes he cannot support the program to the point he is willing to leave is honorable.   I support the additional of girls but will be sadden by the loss of these expert scouters. 

[Jameson76]

22 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

This is pretty much the exact same argument folks had when the BSA announced that it would allow gay boys in Scouts but allow Troops to make their own decision on whether to include gay boys or not.  The opponents of the inclusion of gay boys weren't content enough to accept that they would have a local (re Troop/CO level) choice of whether or not to include gay boys.  They wanted to make sure their neighboring Troops didn't have that choice either because they didn't want their gay-boy free Troop to have to interact with Troops that had gay boys at summer camp, camporees, flag ceremonies, etc. 

I'm not commenting on these types of threads as much anymore because frankly, I'm tired of the whining and groaning and complaining and the threats to leave.  If you're one of these conditional scouters, which I define as "I'm happy to volunteer as long as nothing ever changes and the BSA does things the way I want them to do them", then do us a favor - stop talking about quitting - just quit.  Do it now - don't wait until 2019.  The Scouts - both the youth members in your units, and the organization as a whole, doesn't need your negativity.  As far as I'm concerned, your Negative Nellyism is going to do far more damage to the Boy Scouts of America and to your Scouts then the inclusion of girls ever will. 

Could the BSA have done better announcing it?  Sure.  At the same time, us people on the ground could have handled it a lot better too - letting the BSA roll it out without all of our speculation.  And no, I don't buy the excuse that in a vacuum people will come up with their own plans.  We're adults - adults can show patience and forbearance, (and model it for our Scouts) and wait until official news comes out to start making our plans - we don't have to act like 8th graders worried about what some bully might do to us after school.  At the most, the only thing we should have done is had a conversation with our CO to ask how they wanted us to handle the co-ed program once it was announced.

If your sons are driving your decision, that's fine - that pretty much drives most people's decision making anyway.

But if your decision making is being made because you personally are upset that the BSA didn't send out a survey to each and every member of the organization to ask for their opinion first, then walk through the door, don't look back - and get on with your life without Scouting and let the rest of us who will work to make things work get on with the business of giving our Scouts the best program that we can.

Not the same situations or served groups

If this was truly a move to by BSA to broaden / expand / service the under served or discriminate against; then maybe.  Challenge is the group they are opening the BSA up to already has a group that services them.  There are also a myriad of groups that service coed youth; religious, community, neighborhood, educational.

Bottom line is this is a move about membership numbers and dollars.  That is all.  Bad decisions by the professionals over the years and very recently with Summit and bloated National staff.  Then they justify this with surveys and separate programs and listening tours and unanimous votes (can you say politburo) is basically not-Trustworthy and not-Loyal

This changes the basic thrust of scouting and dilutes the efforts to mold young men.  Will it be around in 10 years, maybe.  Will it be the same, absolutely not.

[Treflienne]

1 hour ago, blw2 said:

funny thing.... I've never seen this thing on my daughters' GSUSA uniforms.... so much for unity.

 

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

GSUSA, as I understand, is a member of WAGGGS not the WOSM.

The WAGGGS symbol is a trefoil, not a fleur-de-lis.   Worn by Girl Scouts and Girl Guides all over the world, who are WAGGGS members.

https://www.wagggs.org/en/about-us/who-we-are/symbols-movement/

[David CO]

2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

 but all I gained was miles on my car and bigger holes in my wallet.

Too bad. I got a lot out of it. I think I may have enjoyed it even more than the boys. Frankly, I had a blast! Of course, I was a Scoutmaster back in the days when scouting was a lot more fun (for both the leaders and the boys). 

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by David CO

[AVTech]

49 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Challenge is the group they are opening the BSA up to already has a group that services them. 

I absolutely disagree with you on this point. My daughter is a Girl Scout. She is bored to tears and cannot wait to be able to do all the cool things her older brother gets to do. The GSUSA  program is very open-ended, so leaders who don't like to camp run programs without camping. The BSA program is much more rigid, and heavily biased towards being outdoors. We will not be poaching from GSUSA, except for those who are NOT being served by their existing Troop's program. We will be attracting young women who want the adventure that a properly run Troop offers.