Tampa Turtle Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, Hawkwin said: Except as adult volunteers, we are not consumers. Our scouts are the consumers. We are the instruments of the Law and the Oath. When we remove our expertise from this process, we are not deciding to buy a cheaper or better product, we are deciding that we longer want to help this group of youth learn the Law and the Oath. Quitting on our existing scouts might be the final "lesson" about the Oath and the Law that we ever teach them. Huh? The business model view does not mix well with the values and members of a movement view. If a guy -who is a volunteer- wants to walk away after many years it is his right. Say thanks and let him go. Why make him drink the flavor-aid? No need to vilify someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridgeskip Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 25 minutes ago, gblotter said: More accurately, the UK is recovering after dramatic membership losses. Nowhere near previous membership levels. The reasons for the intial decline were complex and having been a scout during that time it is broadly described as due to years of stagnation and failure to modernise. Also it is rapidly approaching previous levels. The best estimates, before proper censuses were done is that membership peaked at about 650K. Last census we were at 618K, widely expected to be up again this year. So yes, growing and thriving. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gblotter Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Cambridgeskip said: Also it is rapidly approaching previous levels. The best estimates, before proper censuses were done is that membership peaked at about 650K. Last census we were at 618K, widely expected to be up again this year. So yes, growing and thriving. I stand corrected. I am happy for the successes of UK Scouting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ScouterNorth Posted March 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 9, 2018 54 minutes ago, gblotter said: This is exactly what I see happening. If you want a to maintain a single-gender boy troop, the available program options for summer camp, camporee, merit badge midways, etc will just push you aside. The girls will prevail and the boys will walk. That is essentially what happened with coed Scouting in Canada. Scouts Canada is now primarily a girl movement and just a shadow of its former self after dramatic membership losses. Adding girls to Scouts Canada did nothing to stop the declining membership. I left Scouts as a youth before it went co-ed and came back as a leader afterwards. The difference is obvious and glaring. Add to that the brand new, severely watered down program and I don't see boys continuing to be attracted to the program. I will also add that the useless training burden and ever thickening red tape is causing Scouters drop out since it has become far easier to organize something among friends than it is to go as an organization. In Canada, for many activities, girls have the choice of co-ed or single sex. Boys have the choice of co-ed or....nothing. I have never had anyone give me a satisfactory answer as to why is inherently bad for boys to have single sex programs, yet good and definitely desirable for girls to have them. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post gblotter Posted March 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said: If a guy -who is a volunteer- wants to walk away after many years it is his right. Say thanks and let him go. Why make him drink the flavor-aid? No need to vilify someone. @Tampa Turtle Thank you. I am actually not walking away from BSA - BSA walked away from me. I have stayed the same - Scouting has changed. I am not leaving in protest and anger. Rather I am leaving in sadness for what has been lost. I have a lifetime of good Scouting memories, and I'm especially grateful my son was able to experience it before BSA lost its way. It has been a wonderful ride. To be clear - these membership changes are rooted in financial desperation. It won't work. As BSA adds girls it will lose even more boys, and thus the membership declines will continue. When girls are not attracted in sufficient numbers, BSA will implement additional changes to make Scouting more girl-friendly all while the boys continue to walk away. I can't bear to watch the downfall of something I have dearly loved, so it's time for me to leave. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tampa Turtle Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Personally, I could live with girls in the Troop. I still think it would be to the detriment of some boys who would benefit from a single sex environment but I agree, as many others do on this site and in my district and council that we will end up with some sort of co-ed system really fast. What wounded me, stupid idealistic person that I still am well into middle age, is how badly National made this decision and how little regarded experienced scouter's opinions are on this and many other issues (outdoor method, merit badges, patrol method). I am getting worn down by the greater institution's incompetence and I too am debating taking my services elsewhere. Because I really enjoy working with the boys it will be a real personal loss. Most sadly, my CC told me since I have less than 20 years in as an ASM (unlike some of you guys) I am not vested in the ASM pension plan. Bummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, David CO said: When I write out a check, I feel like I'm a consumer. If you write out a check to "Save the Whales" does that mean your a consumer of whales? If you are a consumer, what good or service is it that you are buying? I don't have the years of service you do but I can't think of a good or service I gained through my years of volunteering (and paying registration fees). My son and other scouts obtained a good or service but all I gained was miles on my car and bigger holes in my wallet. Edited March 9, 2018 by Hawkwin you=your Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, gblotter said: My son attended National Jamboree last year, There were girls at the Jambo last year. Edited March 9, 2018 by Hawkwin 1st year for girls at Jambo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gblotter Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Hawkwin said: There were girls at the Jambo last year. There have probably been girls at the Jambo for decades - just a guess. The girls from our council were part of a separate Venturing Crew. They Venturing Crew ran their own Jamboree program were never seen except at the airport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said: Say thanks and let him go. Why make him drink the flavor-aid? No need to vilify someone. No vilification, just confusion how someone can make an informed decision when we don't know what BSA4G will look like. As I stated, perhaps now for the third time, if troops are forced to have girls, then those leaders have my sympathy and support in their decision. Step away if it turns out as bad as some seem to think it will be but don't step away over the fear of what it could be. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridgeskip Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 18 minutes ago, gblotter said: Actually, yes. My son attended National Jamboree last year, but he is avoiding the upcoming World Jamboree despite recruitment efforts from our council. The flavor of the two events is significantly different (only partly because of girls). You know, if I ever had the opportunity to speak to your son I would ask that he reconsider. While I have never camped at a world jamboree I did have the privelidge of going to the European Jamboree in 2005. It was an extraordinary experience. To one side of my unit were Italians, the other side of them were Irish. The side of us were Polish, the other side of them Isralie. Across the track from us were Dutch, Swiss, Portugese and Ugandan units. Altogether I think there were 68 countries with contingents there from across Europe and many beyond. In 2015 my group were luck enough to send 5 explorer scouts as part of the UK contingent to the Japan jamboree. They all loved it. None of them were expecting the experience they got. You're quite right it's different flavour. It's not a cheap flavour, but it's a unique one. You can't really anticipate it till you get there. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 hours ago, qwazse said: Would you take them to a reservation where the boys' troops were assigned a camp on one side of a 250 acre lake, and the BSA4G troops were assigned a camp on the other side of the lake? Camps would have different, largely independent, staff (from director on down - same rangers though). Some facilities (Cope, Shotgun) would be on a red line that's about 400 yards wide. Just picking your brain for the sake of certain council camping committees who will try to be proactive about this kind of thing. If such an idea is a non-starter, they hopefully won't waste much time it and hustle back to the drawing board. wasn't this a movie?.... the boys would sneak over to the girls side of the lake and prank them....and the girls would at other times sneak over to the boy's side for revenge 1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said: Do you and your scouts wear the World Crest on their uniform? funny thing.... I've never seen this thing on my daughters' GSUSA uniforms.... so much for unity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gblotter Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cambridgeskip said: You're quite right it's different flavour. It's not a cheap flavour, but it's a unique one. You can't really anticipate it till you get there. A Scout from our troop attended an earlier World Jamboree. His feedback is primarily what deterred us. Among his Jamboree cohorts, he reported very crude behavior with lots of swearing and pornography. Adult leaders seemed unconcerned and unwilling to address it. Perhaps the addition of girls into their contingent actually would have moderated that unsavory aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tampa Turtle Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, blw2 said: funny thing.... I've never seen this thing on my daughters' GSUSA uniforms.... so much for unity. Too bad if all them have to wear it it is another fund raising opportunity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, blw2 said: funny thing.... I've never seen this thing on my daughters' GSUSA uniforms.... so much for unity. GSUSA, as I understand, is a member of WAGGGS not the WOSM. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts